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More sacrifices to the 2nd Amendment

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16 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Penn  & Teller are from this time period. If you're trying to use the "Well Regulated" meant "Well Organized" argument - I'm not even sure where that originated. The colonialists (the people) were the militia and not any part of a standing army (which caused Hamilton great concern for the US to have one - but we do). 

In his Federalist Papers No. 29, he  outlines all "three sides" of the coin. The militia, a standing army and the people. "Well Regulated" meant training to a military standard. It was proposed, that the people from each state would gather once or twice a year and train to military standards, but make no mistake they were "the people" of each state - not a paid military. In fact, they could be made to support another state in the event that other state were invaded by a standing army. 

There is an ongoing myth about what the forefathers "meant" about a "well regulated" militia and "the people" being separate by a single comma. "The people" were "the militia." The right to bear arms was to allow the people to support the militia UNTIL a more formalized militia could be developed at a later date to protect these US from a standing (foreign) army.

If you don't believe the government can regulate weapons and ammo, then how has the NFA stood as a law for so long. Did you know that the Supreme Court didn't acknowledge individual gun ownership as a right until 2008. 219 years after the US Constitution was adopted.

If you don't think the US can ban certain weapons, then why is there still a ban on gravity knives. Why is there still a law on who can or can't own machine guns and a rather lengthy "well-regulated" process to own one.  

Having said all that, I personally, don't like the "left's" attack on the 2nd Amendment, but I also don't like the "right's" belief that gun ownership comes without some form of responsibility or accountability, or regulation. The "left" needs to agree to leave the 2nd Amendment alone and the "right" needs to agree that children getting killed in school warrants  regulation of firearms to prevent it from happening again. We claim to be morally superior to other countries - let's start with protecting children from even having to have "active shooter" programs by regulating ownership - not banning guns, but banning nut jobs from owning guns AND ensuring everyone who owns a weapon gets the proper training as Hamilton outlined as "the People" being "Well Regulated."  

Complete BALDERDASH!!!!!!! The Bill of Rights is centered on the Rights Of The People.. NOT the rights of the government. Time for you to get that straight. The second amendment was about infringing on the rights of the PEOPLE. A country needs an army to defend itself. Since the army is "well supplied" it is the right of the people to have enough arms to defend themselves and overthrow a tyrannical government. THAT'S what they had just done for the last 2 years!!!! China has no second amendment .. Check it out.

 

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2 hours ago, Slim King said:

it is the right of the people to have enough arms to defend themselves and overthrow a tyrannical government.

So, now you echo the infamous Jefferson quote. One problem. He never said that. (you're free to contact the Thomas Jefferson Foundation to confirm - they have nothing that states he said that).

It was written by John Barnhill in 1914. 

The way the Constitution protects against tyranny is Separation of Powers. “Liberty requires that the three great departments of power should be separate and distinct.” ~James Madison. 

You've really got to stop using YouTube, Rumbl, Breitbart and other supposed media outlets to make your arguments and try picking up a book. Or two, or three.  

 

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11 hours ago, Slim King said:

Complete BALDERDASH!!!!!!! The Bill of Rights is centered on the Rights Of The People.. NOT the rights of the government. Time for you to get that straight. The second amendment was about infringing on the rights of the PEOPLE. A country needs an army to defend itself. Since the army is "well supplied" it is the right of the people to have enough arms to defend themselves and overthrow a tyrannical government. THAT'S what they had just done for the last 2 years!!!! China has no second amendment .. Check it out.

 

You're going to need thermonuclear devices, long range missiles, satellites, MANY highly advanced technical jet fighters.....oh never mind. It's laughable people still think this way.

Like January 6 had any chance of succeeding. At least it was a hell of an eye opener.

 

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4 hours ago, normiss said:

You're going to need thermonuclear devices, long range missiles, satellites, MANY highly advanced technical jet fighters.....oh never mind. It's laughable people still think this way.

Like January 6 had any chance of succeeding. At least it was a hell of an eye opener.

 

Hi Mark,

IMO one of the nuttiest arguments out there is that, 'I need my guns to protect me from the government.'

As if the gov't. did not have more & greater firepower.

The fantasies that people live in,  You wonder if they have ever actually seen a SWAT vehicle?

Jerry Baumchen

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5 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Mark,

IMO one of the nuttiest arguments out there is that, 'I need my guns to protect me from the government.'

As if the gov't. did not have more & greater firepower.

The fantasies that people live in,  You wonder if they have ever actually seen a SWAT vehicle?

Jerry Baumchen

To quote Jim Jefferies "... you're bringing guns to a drone fight "

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2 hours ago, brenthutch said:

image.jpeg.821af8d7464c6b22c67f40edc407a5ee.jpeg
the Second Amendment strikes down another 

You're back from a month of skulking and lurking after your premature gloating of the Red Wave that never was, and your inaugural post is a 'Beto Sucks'???  I expected more from you Brent

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11 minutes ago, lippy said:

You're back from a month of skulking and lurking after your premature gloating of the Red Wave that never was, and your inaugural post is a 'Beto Sucks'???  I expected more from you Brent

After month of pent up anger I'm expecting a torrent of posts that I won't see except when they are quoted.That will go on for about 5 days till the next vacation. Wash, rinse, repeat.

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31 minutes ago, lippy said:

You're back from a month of skulking and lurking after your premature gloating of the Red Wave that never was, and your inaugural post is a 'Beto Sucks'???  I expected more from you Brent

The red wave was big enough to wash Pelosi out of the Speaker’s chair and put an end to Biden’s legislative agenda.  That’s big enough for me.

Now, if we can just get rid of Trump.

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On 12/6/2022 at 10:30 AM, brenthutch said:

The red wave was big enough to wash Pelosi out of the Speaker’s chair and put an end to Biden’s legislative agenda.  That’s big enough for me.

Now, if we can just get rid of Trump.

It was an historically bad performance by a party not holding the presidency at mid-terms. But then celebrating sub-par performance is a bit of a Republican trait.

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4 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

It was an historically bad performance by a party not holding the presidency at mid-terms. But then celebrating sub-par performance is a bit of a Republican trait.

A win is a win, Dems lose the speakership, control over committees and Biden’s legislative agenda.  Republicans won, Democrats and Trumpers lost, that is a win, win, win in my book.

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This is an interesting article on the 1994 - 2003 assault weapons ban. It's 101 pages but worth the read. 

The article uses: AW for assault weapon, and LCM for large capacity magazine.

It would be valuable to repeat the study looking at what is occurring today. So much has changed since 2004. The volume of guns and LCMs, and capacity of LCMs are just three.

The number of these items in private ownership in the US varies based on the data source. Regardless of the actual number there has been a 10-13X increase since 2004.

AWs - 1994 - 1.5 million, 2022 - 20 million

LCMs - 1994 - 25-30 million, 2022 - 304 million

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/204431.pdf

A few excerpts:

“We cannot clearly credit the ban with any of the nation’s recent drop in gun violence,”

"AWs were used in only a small fraction of gun crimes prior to the ban: about 2% according to most studies and no more than 8%. Most of the AWs used in crime are assault pistols rather than assault rifles."

"Reducing attacks with AWs and LCMs may in fact have no more than a trivial impact on gun deaths and injuries, but any such impact cannot be realized or adequately assessed until the availability and use of the banned guns and magazines decline appreciably. Additionally, it may take many years for the effects of modest, incremental policy changes to be fully felt, a reality that both researchers and policy makers should heed."

"Should it be renewed, the ban might reduce gunshot victimizations. This effect is likely to be small at best and possibly too small for reliable measurement. A 5% reduction in gunshot victimizations is perhaps a reasonable upper bound estimate of the ban’s potential impact (based on the only available estimate of gunshot victimizations resulting from attacks in which more than 10 shots were fired), but the actual impact is likely to be smaller and may not be fully realized for many years into the future,.."

It noted that assault weapons weren’t often “used in gun crimes even before the ban,” and it noted that while LCMs “are involved in a more substantial share of gun crimes,” it was then unclear “how often the outcomes of gun attacks depend on the ability of offenders to fire more than ten shots (the current magazine capacity limit) without reloading.” 

"It is also possible, and perhaps probable, that new AWs and LCMs will eventually be used to commit mass murder. Mass murders garner much media attention, particularly when they involve AWs (Duwe, 2000). The notoriety likely to accompany mass murders if committed with AWs and LCMs, especially after these guns and magazines have been deregulated, could have a considerable negative impact on public perceptions,"

 

A recent trip to the gun store for target ammo was interesting. This particular store, Palmetto State Armory, has seven retail locations. They have a manufacturing facility making many types and designs of AWs. They sell complete guns and all the parts to build a gun. Many people like to build their own guns using parts from various manufacturers.

My estimate is that the display cases at this one store hold 260+/- different handguns from numerous manufacturers. Ranging from an $180 cowboy style .22 pistol up to an engraved silver plated .50 caliber Desert Eagle for $9,998. The rear and side walls hold the long guns and AWs. There were at least 100 of them. Then there are the non-lethal items, tools, cases, optics, mounts, knives, cleaning supplies, ammo, clothes boots, archery equipment, targets, etc. one stop shopping for sure. This store has an indoor gun range. The website lists 5,209 different pistols (1,294 in stock), 1,479 AW guns (343 in stock), 2,717 traditional rifles (469 in stock), and 2,013 shotguns (661 in stock). The point being is there are a ton of options and guns available for purchase in the US.

One can even purchase a PulseFire under barrel mounted flame thrower! I hope that this item goes the route of the bump stock.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/guns/handguns.html

https://palmettostatearmory.com/exothermic-technologies-pulsefire-ubf-underbarrel-flamethrower-black-pf-ubf.html

https://exothermic.tech/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuI_Ly-7s-wIVMRXUAR2CugKkEAAYASAAEgId8fD_BwE   Direct from the manufacturer. Best for melting ice, agricultural purposes, controlled burns, weeds, bonfires, insects, films and TV, and pyrotechnic shows. Barbie doll included and they are on sale!! Get yourself a stocking stuffer.

 

IMO - The sheer volume of guns and magazines in private ownership will make it extremely difficult to enact legislation. My hope is that a bipartisan group will identify and propose effective actions that will have a measurable impact on gun crimes without unduly restricting responsible private ownership. That's an awfully thin tightrope.

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On 12/6/2022 at 10:10 AM, gowlerk said:

After month of pent up anger I'm expecting a torrent of posts that I won't see except when they are quoted.That will go on for about 5 days till the next vacation. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Yep.  You have to feel at least a little bit bad for him.  No red wave, a stalemate-proof blue majority in the senate, Trump going down under dozens of lawsuits and criminal investigations, an American released from a Russian jail, Jan 6th rioters going to jail for sedition, a Supreme Court case that may make gerrymandering a lot harder, success for American companies making batteries, EVs, wind turbines and solar power systems, Biden's approval ratings going up - it's a hard time to be a conservative extremist.

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(edited)
1 hour ago, billvon said:

Yep.  You have to feel at least a little bit bad for him.  No red wave, a stalemate-proof blue majority in the senate, Trump going down under dozens of lawsuits and criminal investigations, an American released from a Russian jail, Jan 6th rioters going to jail for sedition, a Supreme Court case that may make gerrymandering a lot harder, success for American companies making batteries, EVs, wind turbines and solar power systems,Oil prices down. Brent's oil stocks down. Gas prices down. Biden's approval ratings going up - it's a hard time to be a conservative extremist.

A sad depressing x-mas at the Brent household. No big year end bonus for Brent's MB SUV driving big Pharma wife.No Daniel Defense AR-15's under the x-mas tree No high capacity mags in the stockings by the fire. Very depressing.

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Edited by Phil1111

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(edited)
4 hours ago, billeisele said:

" .... Most of the AWs used in crime are assault pistols rather than assault rifles." ... "

"Assault pistol" is a new term. First time I have heard it.

What does "assault pistol" mean? 

A pistol magazine that can hold more than 10 rounds is the current Canadian legal definition of a restricted pistol. If you have a pistol magazine capable of holding more than 10-rounds, it needs to be pegged/riveted to limit capacity.

The Canadian House of Commons is currently struggling to define "assault weapon" and "assault rifle." One of their stumbling blocks is all the thousands of Communist-surplus SKS carbines (10-round, trap-door magazine) used by First Nation hunters: Inuit, Eskimo, Cree, Dene, etc.

All other Canadians are limited to 5-round magazines in rifles, but one rumor has it that Parliament would like to limit rifles to 5-round, trap-door magazines.

Perhaps Americans should watch the Canadian, New Zealand, British, etc. lead on gun laws because that is likely to happen in the USA in another decade or two.

Edited by riggerrob
Add a paragraph

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6 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

A sad depressing x-mas at the Brent household. No big year end bonus for Brent's MB SUV driving big Pharma wife.No Daniel Defense AR-15's under the x-mas tree No high capacity mags in the stockings by the fire. Very depressing.

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I'll trade a Ruger M77 (killed 10 Elk) and a Remington 870 (killed a bazillion waterfowl) for Brents worst AR rifle and pay shipping and fees both way's.

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On 12/9/2022 at 2:16 PM, riggerrob said:

What does "assault pistol" mean? 

It means we figured out a way around the the National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA) definition of a short-barreled rifle and can avoid registration and tax stamp. A short-barreled rifle (SBR) is any rifle with a shoulder stock and barrel less than 16 inches in length and 26 inches in overall length. It requires a citizen to fill out ATF Form 4, wait 4 months for a background and formalized transfer, and pay a $200 NFA Tax Stamp.

Make an AR short with no stock and a barrel of less than 16 inches - call it a pistol. No NFA. Ta daaa!!!

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On 12/9/2022 at 12:49 PM, Phil1111 said:

A sad depressing x-mas at the Brent household. No big year end bonus for Brent's MB SUV driving big Pharma wife.No Daniel Defense AR-15's under the x-mas tree No high capacity mags in the stockings by the fire. Very depressing.

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We will just have to wait and see what Santa brings

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