More sacrifices to the 2nd Amendment

[billeisele 122]

7 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

What if the method you are using to counteract the armed thugs is actually increasing the number of armed thugs?

If you're talking about people leaving guns in cars, and the guns being stolen - yes, that is a problem. Our local sheriff, national sheriff of the year in 2021, has publicly stated that a primary reason there are so many car breakins is people looking for guns. Apparently, a large number of folks leave their cars unlocked and guns inside. I've seen the videos. Most of them were younger folks pulling door handles. The sheriff has repeatedly asked folks to remove their guns when they leave the car, especially at night. But yet it continues.

I'm all for some type of "encouragement" that would at least make people think about it. The problem is that if it includes a fine or anything punitive people just won't report it.

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

7 minutes ago, billeisele said:

Hey Jerry - I understand. I agree with you, in many, possibly most, cases it wouldn't be an issue. You and I don't live in areas where this would be a concern. Others do.

In the case being referenced, they were in a car. One would think that in that environment, immediate access would be needed. The article doesn't provide sufficient info to understand what occurred, other than the shooting.

Hi Bill,

Since we do not know the details, such is life.

Most problems during driving IMO have more to do with anger management than the rules of the road.

1.  If someone is signaling that they want into my lane, I slow down & let them in.

2.  If they want to get 'bully' and just shoot into my lane, I let it pass.

3.  I never stand on my horn for anything.  A quick 'blip' usually works just fine.

4.  Never give another driver/passenger the finger.

If someone 'bullies' into my lane, just how much does that slow me down for where I want to go?  Maybe 30 seconds at the most.  30 seconds out of my life is not worth some anger-driven road rage event.

OK, I'll get down off of my soap box now,

Jerry Baumchen

[billeisele 122]

9 hours ago, kallend said:

There's always an explanation, however ludicrous, that avoids invoking the ready availability of guns.

OK. So what do you propose that would allow a law abiding citizen access to a firearm but eliminate access to others? Or are you proposing eliminating access to all?

How do you propose collecting the millions of guns illegally owned and possessed by criminals?

While you're solving all this. How do you propose we stop the flow of guns across the southern border? 

[billeisele 122]

25 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Bill,

Since we do not know the details, such is life.

Most problems during driving IMO have more to do with anger management than the rules of the road.

1.  If someone is signaling that they want into my lane, I slow down & let them in.

2.  If they want to get 'bully' and just shoot into my lane, I let it pass.

3.  I never stand on my horn for anything.  A quick 'blip' usually works just fine.

4.  Never give another driver/passenger the finger.

If someone 'bullies' into my lane, just how much does that slow me down for where I want to go?  Maybe 30 seconds at the most.  30 seconds out of my life is not worth some anger-driven road rage event.

OK, I'll get down off of my soap box now,

Jerry Baumchen

I get it and agree with you. I suspect that neither of us live in areas where there is a big concern about being shot while driving. I try to avoid areas where the risk is greater but that's not always possible. At night, gas stations, ATMs and alcohol establishments have higher risk. There are certain places in the city that I just avoid.

It's interesting to review the various data sources. The CDC source shows gun death rates per 100,000. In general, the SE has the highest rates. Montana and Wyoming are in that category even though the deaths in absolute numbers are fairly low. While states like IL and MD have low rates the absolute numbers are quite high. Can one say - that states with cities with residential instability, economic deprivation, homelessness, unemployment, drug and alcohol abuse, etc. are a major gun death zones? Of note, is that the US is not in the top ten in gun deaths per 100K but second in suicide rate. (world population review info)
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm

The 2019 FBI stats provide a deeper dive into the numbers. These numbers don't include suicide. One thing interesting to note is : Total Murders = 13,900, Guns = 10,300. That means 3,600 (26%) with knives, and other weapons.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls

The PEW Research data includes suicide and states that for 2020 there were 45,222 gun deaths. 54% suicide and 43% murder, and 3% (1,546) other - unintentional, law enforcement or undetermined. 

None of this is good.
 

[wmw999 2,121]

I would say, based entirely on instinct without actual research, that comparing death rates is far better than comparing death numbers by state. Otherwise it'd be like comparing land usage in, say, Rhode Island vs. Texas. I'd also say that crowding would contribute to gun violence, in part because crowding contributes to violence in general. The fairest comparison might be large urban areas vs. small urban areas vs. suburbs vs. rural and semi-rural. Then layer that on top of region and/or education and/or state, or whatever else you want (party affiliation? NRA membership? dentist?)

Wendy P.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

14 hours ago, billeisele said:

One of the same old issues. How does one secure a gun AND have it readily available for self-protection? A cable lock through the barrel, as suggested in the article, makes a gun unavailable in an emergency.

In this particular case it would be interesting to know why no one noticed the child finding the gun and using the gun. Where was the gun located? Was there any reasonable attempt to have the gun in a safe place? Was no one watching the 3-year old? Maybe heads buried in the smart phones? 

Sure Bill, it was smart phones. How about given how unlikely it is to ever need a loaded gun for self defense in your home that you don't have readily available loaded guns in homes, much less your damn car, with kids. And if you do and your kid kills you (best case scenario) or themselves then you get to go to jail? It's a choice, right? And, while the article didn't mention it, I'll guess it wasn't a Barrett .50 but maybe a pistol. And before a revolver that might have too hard a trigger pull for a 3 year old I'd guess a Glock without a safety. And no, I don't consider trigger safeties to be safeties. 

Too many easily available guns and too many dipshits is the problem. 

[billvon 2,396]

7 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Too many easily available guns and too many dipshits is the problem. 

And perhaps a society that trains people to fear for their safety without a gun in their hand.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

10 minutes ago, billvon said:

And perhaps a society that trains people to fear for their safety without a gun in their hand.

I often wonder if the idea of society that made it possible for us to progress to where we are was less a marriage than an uneasy peace. Maybe it's just our nature to fight each other like too many rats in a cage.

[gowlerk 1,911]

Why do Americans wonder and debate this? Guns are machines designed to kill people. People are emotional and a mix of good and bad. If there are a lot of guns around people will use them to do exactly what they were made for more often than if there are fewer guns around. You have your rights and you have to pay for them. Sometimes with the lives of your children

 

[JoeWeber 2,299]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

Why do Americans wonder and debate this? Guns are machines designed to kill people. People are emotional and a mix of good and bad. If there are a lot of guns around people will use them to do exactly what they were made for more often than if there are fewer guns around. You have your rights and you have to pay for them. Sometimes with the lives of your children

 

No. It's always with the lives of other peoples children. Importantly it's also, invariably, people you don't know. Like cigarette packs, maybe guns should be sold with photographs of gunshot people affixed to the sides.

[wmw999 2,121]

6 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Like cigarette packs, maybe guns should be sold with photographs of gunshot people affixed to the sides.

I could run with this... Maybe even identify the specific model, and target that one with a little "X children killed since 2000" or something like that.

Wendy P.

[billeisele 122]

9 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Sure Bill, it was smart phones. How about given how unlikely it is to ever need a loaded gun for self defense in your home that you don't have readily available loaded guns in homes, much less your damn car, with kids. And if you do and your kid kills you (best case scenario) or themselves then you get to go to jail? It's a choice, right? And, while the article didn't mention it, I'll guess it wasn't a Barrett .50 but maybe a pistol. And before a revolver that might have too hard a trigger pull for a 3 year old I'd guess a Glock without a safety. And no, I don't consider trigger safeties to be safeties. 

Too many easily available guns and too many dipshits is the problem. 

Good morning Joe. The folks in the car obviously weren't paying any attention to the kid. Be it their face in a phone or something else. The point is lack of parental control. Just read/watched an interesting video about the likelihood of one recovering an item lost in Japan. Moral upbringing, culture and the "societal eye." Something seems to be missing in America.

 

Yes, to many easily available guns and too many irresponsible owners.

Now that we have these ~400 millions guns in private possession .....

What do you propose that would allow a law abiding citizen access to a firearm but eliminate access to others? Or are you proposing eliminating access to all?

How do you propose collecting the millions of guns illegally owned and those possessed by criminals?

While you're solving all this. How do you propose we stop the flow of guns across the southern border? 

[gowlerk 1,911]

21 minutes ago, billeisele said:

While you're solving all this. How do you propose we stop the flow of guns across the southern border? 

You are kidding right? What direction do you think weapons flow across US borders in?

[billeisele 122]

On 2/16/2022 at 8:48 AM, wmw999 said:

The bells some people wear in the west might make you feel like a wimp, but the hikers are the visitors.

Wendy P. 

Back in February we were discussing methods to safely visit bear country. The topic of wearing a bell was brought up by Ms Wendy. Obviously it's a good idea.

This is an interesting job opportunity. The ad says that one, "may also need to carry a firearm for protection" but says nothing about a bell. One could buy a bell and write it off their taxes.

It then says, "Applicants must be a US citizen and possess "significant grizzly bear handling experience." Just exactly how does one get that experience? I'd luv to read the applications to enjoy the creative writing on that requirement.

https://www.businessinsider.com/dream-job-paid-103000-grizzly-bear-conflict-manager-montana-2022-3?utm_campaign=mb&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_source=morning_brew

[Phil1111 910]

11 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

You are kidding right? What direction do you think weapons flow across US borders in?

From Canada, Japan, the UK,etc. Only the NRA suggests its from the "southern border".

Speaking of the NRA, whatever happened to it. Mr. LaPierre seems to have vanished since his supply of private jets, and $30,000 suits dried up.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Phil1111

[Phil1111 910]

2 minutes ago, billeisele said:

Back in February we were discussing methods to safely visit bear country. The topic of wearing a bell was brought up by Ms Wendy. Obviously it's a good idea.

This is an interesting job opportunity. The ad says that one, "may also need to carry a firearm for protection" but says nothing about a bell. One could buy a bell and write it off their taxes.

It then says, "Applicants must be a US citizen and possess "significant grizzly bear handling experience." Just exactly how does one get that experience? I'd luv to read the applications to enjoy the creative writing on that requirement.

https://www.businessinsider.com/dream-job-paid-103000-grizzly-bear-conflict-manager-montana-2022-3?utm_campaign=mb&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_source=morning_brew

Previous employment as a park ranger?

[billeisele 122]

6 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

You are kidding right? What direction do you think weapons flow across US borders in?

Yes, you are correct. At present the gun flow is southward, and it's a big problem. We get drugs, human trafficking victims, illegals, and foreign criminals, and the cartels and others get guns and whatever else. Nothing that a wall might start to manage but ....

The concern is that if guns became restricted in the US then the flow would be from Mexico. No exact proof of that except that just about anything restricted in the US eventually gets addressed by folks outside the US. No reason to think that gun smuggling would not become another revenue stream.

[billeisele 122]

10 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Previous employment as a park ranger?

For sure. There will be plenty of those, and biologists that have worked with bears. There will certainly be some that try and stretch their experience with creative writing. Great job for the right person.

We have a guy here in Columbia. SC that is the "River Keeper." Part of his job is to monitor water quality, catch issues with sewer overflows and other non-permitted discharges. He spends many days kayaking the rivers. No telling how many are waiting for that job to come open.

[gowlerk 1,911]

28 minutes ago, billeisele said:

The concern is that if guns became restricted in the US then the flow would be from Mexico.

Canada is struggling to cope with a northward flow of illegal weapons at this time. We can understand your concern.

[wmw999 2,121]

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

Previous employment as a park ranger?

And you can volunteer as a park ranger; that can even morph into a paid position. A couple of friends of mine volunteered at Yosemite for several years as back country rangers, then one was asked to become a paid summer ranger. He’s finally retired from that, in his late 70’s (yes, they’re both really fit).

Wendy P. 

[Phil1111 910]

9 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

And you can volunteer as a park ranger; that can even morph into a paid position. A couple of friends of mine volunteered at Yosemite for several years as back country rangers, then one was asked to become a paid summer ranger. He’s finally retired from that, in his late 70’s (yes, they’re both really fit).

Wendy P. 

Some parks have bear relocation programs and some do not. The polar bear relocation program at Churchill Manitoba is probably the most active and famous. About 10% of those bears are relocated by Bell 206. Those are the multiple problem ones. Its not a park but a program to keep them out of the town.

I'm sure there are really busy parks in the Smokey Mountains where the rangers really earn their pay with problem campers. But it sure seems like a fun job in bigger parks with less human visitors.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

1 hour ago, billeisele said:

The concern is that if guns became restricted in the US then the flow would be from Mexico. No exact proof of that except that just about anything restricted in the US eventually gets addressed by folks outside the US. No reason to think that gun smuggling would not become another revenue stream.

I agree with this if you were to ban the ownership of guns, but there are other ways to address the ready availability of guns without restricting ownership.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

3 hours ago, billeisele said:

Good morning Joe. The folks in the car obviously weren't paying any attention to the kid. Be it their face in a phone or something else. The point is lack of parental control. Just read/watched an interesting video about the likelihood of one recovering an item lost in Japan. Moral upbringing, culture and the "societal eye." Something seems to be missing in America.

 

Yes, to many easily available guns and too many irresponsible owners.

Now that we have these ~400 millions guns in private possession .....

What do you propose that would allow a law abiding citizen access to a firearm but eliminate access to others? Or are you proposing eliminating access to all?

How do you propose collecting the millions of guns illegally owned and those possessed by criminals?

While you're solving all this. How do you propose we stop the flow of guns across the southern border? 

In the Covid thread I posited "You have fully nailed the reality of Billeisele. He believes what he believes because it where he is at socially".

You didn't much care for that analysis leading me to apologize for the conjecture. But then here again, in my opinion, you validate the conjecture. A child kills a parent with a loaded gun in a car and you find causation in, to wit "Moral upbringing, culture and the "societal eye." Something seems to be missing in America." Well, I couldn't agree more.  

 

Notably,  there seems to be strong correlation between gun deaths in America and states with lax gun laws and a high percentage of gun ownership. 

https://vpc.org/state-firearm-death-rates-ranked-by-rate-2020/ https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/gun-deaths-by-state

 

So whether it be that folks naturally gravitate to societal clusters with like beliefs, naturally adopt local beliefs, or were taught to believe what they believe on momma's knee social environs do seem to matter. Obviously there is nothing cut and dried about it but gun deaths do seem to be strongly associated with strong gun culture states that have also have lax gun laws and high gun ownership. If you believe that gun violence in the barrio's and ghetto's is a function of those societies then you're already half way home.

 

What to do? Stop believing that you need to have a loaded gun ready for self defense at all times would be a good start. Oppose all open carry laws. Oppose all concealed carry laws that aren't limited to real need and serious training and have consequences for misuse. Quit pretending that military styled weapons are good hunting and self defense guns. Also, stop sayin AR-15 platform as if it's a seed from which pretty plants grow. Teach the truth about gun violence in schools early on. Stop believing tropes like our gun problems are all imported from Mexico. Quit pretending without evidence that there is nothing that can be done now because too many guns are already out there. And hate it with all of your heart when you hear about things like kid sized assault weapons and bullet proof back packs for school books. In other words don't just hold our hands in the air and give up. 

 

 

[billvon 2,396]

3 hours ago, billeisele said:

What do you propose that would allow a law abiding citizen access to a firearm but eliminate access to others? 

Some propsals:

No sales or transfers without a background check.  Ever.  Period.

Identification requirements on all weapons, and all parts sold for weapons.

Safe storage requirements on all weapons.  If police enter your home (or search your car) for some other reason, and find an unsecured weapon, automatic and mandatory 5 year jail sentence.

[Phil1111 910]

34 minutes ago, billvon said:

Some propsals:

Identification requirements on all weapons, and all parts sold for weapons.

There are SN# on frames now except for old antiques. But SN# on parts isn't practical or realistic.

Otherwise its a start. Bigun and Joe have ad some answers to these issues before. Unfortunately the US election cycle, the NRA, the GOP and FOX, will kill implementation ....forever.