More sacrifices to the 2nd Amendment

[lippy 771]

2 hours ago, billeisele said:

That is an interesting description. One could, in some situations, also say - the SYG law gave the homeowner the knowledge that they could defend themselves against aggression without worrying about being prosecuted.

No officer, I didn't escalate the situation I deescalated it. The intruder had a gun, I got a gun and a bell. I rang the bell and he didn't run away. He pointed his gun at me, I pointed my gun at him. I then deescalated the situation. I no longer have a gun pointed at me and you don't have a ton of policework to do trying to locate the intruder. He's right there. Anything else I can help you with?

To be clear. One should escape if possible. But, when needed, SYG is a good thing, IMO. 

What you're describing here is somebody breaking into your home and pointing a gun at you.  There's a whole debate about keeping a gun beside the bed for self-defense and I'm not touching that with a 10' pole, but isn't that somewhat separate from SYG?  

In my understanding, and I could very well be wrong, SYG is essentially taking the undisputed rights you have to protect yourself in your home, and extending that to the Denny's parking lot.  And the threshold for feeling threatened and 'standing one's ground' is a helluva lot lower than having somebody pointing a gun at your head.  

[kallend 1,623]

55 minutes ago, billeisele said:

The study has a ton of flaws rendering it nothing more that interesting information.

Forget to take your ivermectin this morning?

[GeorgiaDon 340]

1 hour ago, billeisele said:

The study has a ton of flaws rendering it nothing more that interesting information. The most obvious is the use of the liberal definition of "homicide." The conventional definition is, "the deliberate and unlawful killing..." A SYG self-defense killing is lawful. The liberal definition includes lawful and unlawful killings as homicides.

Homicide is defined in the law as "when one human being causes the death of another."  That's not a liberal definition, it's the legal meaning of the word.  Homicide includes justifiable killing, murder, manslaughter, accident, etc without implication as to criminality.

3 hours ago, billeisele said:

That is an interesting description. One could, in some situations, also say - the SYG law gave the homeowner the knowledge that they could defend themselves against aggression without worrying about being prosecuted.

Castle doctrine long ago (centuries) established that you have the right to defend yourself, including with lethal force, in your "castle" (home).  As lippy so eloquently put it, SYG laws (mostly written by the NRA by the way) extend that to the Denny's parking lot.  It has always been legal to defend yourself, even with lethal force, to protect yourself against someone threatening you with lethal force, if that is the only reasonable way to defend yourself.  To some people, though, SYG laws extend the concept of "self defense" to include lethal force to protect yourself against people wielding loud music, plastic bags, bags of popcorn, checking your power meter, etc.  In some states SYG has been used to acquit defendants who started a confrontation or fight, then resorted to a firearm when the fight didn't go their way.  Drug dealers having a gun battle over territory have successfully used SYG to defend themselves in court.  Even if the defendant is eventually charged and convicted, the victim is still dead.

Georgia is currently a "shall issue" state, meaning that the state must issue a concealed carry permit as long as you pass a background check.  No training in firearm proficiency or the law regarding firearm use is required.  Legislation has been introduced, and will certainly pass, to make Georgia a "constitutional carry" state with no requirement for a concealed carry permit or a background check.  Whatever your opinion of lax training in SC, in Georgia there is no training at all, so people sometimes discover their misunderstanding of who/when the law allows them to kill someone only after it is too late.

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi folks,

IMO this is a good first step:  The Washington Legislature has approved the prohibition of the manufacture, distribution and sale of firearm magazines that hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition.

Washington Legislature votes to limit sale of high-capacity magazines - OPB

Jerry Baumchen

[billeisele 122]

On 3/5/2022 at 3:03 PM, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi folks,

IMO this is a good first step:  The Washington Legislature has approved the prohibition of the manufacture, distribution and sale of firearm magazines that hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition.

Washington Legislature votes to limit sale of high-capacity magazines - OPB

Jerry Baumchen

If handguns can be imported into Illinois and other sates with restrictive laws it's not a stretch to think that magazine sales will do the same. Seems that the law is rather empty since possession of the device isn't illegal.

[BIGUN 1,053]

34 minutes ago, billeisele said:

possession of the device isn't illegal.

Due to nine states now having LCM restrictions (Starting with CA back around 1994-6) the manufacturers now put a manufacture date stamp on the magazines. If you're in possession of one that has a date after the bill, it's illegal.  

[billeisele 122]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

Due to nine states now having LCM restrictions (Starting with CA back around 1994-6) the manufacturers now put a manufacture date stamp on the magazines. If you're in possession of one that has a date after the bill, it's illegal.  

The article said, "The measure limits magazines for rifles that hold 20 or 30 rounds and for a host of pistols that carry more than 10 rounds. It does not prohibit the possession of such magazines." 

If that's the case it seems the law would be fairly ineffective, at least in that state.

And just saw this - 

Palmetto State Armory

Yesterday at 11:32  · 

 

With the passing of Washington State's unconstitutional law targeting standard capacity magazines, it is more important than ever for Washington State citizens to stock up on mags. All magazine orders placed from Washington State with Palmetto State Armory with ship out immediately and receive priority over all other orders. Thank you for your understanding and continued business during this time.

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by billeisele

[Phil1111 910]

Its getting worse. One dead, one critical, one serious, 11 shots fired by six teen-aged shooters, all with guns at a high school:

"Six teenagers from Des Moines between the ages of 14 and 17 were each charged with one count of first-degree murder and two counts of attempted murder, the police said.

There were multiple shooters who fired from multiple vehicles, Sgt. Paul Parizek, a spokesman for the Des Moines Police Department, said in a news release on Tuesday.

Multiple search warrants were executed and six firearms were recovered.

“While this incident occurred outside of a school, it could have occurred in any one of our neighborhoods,” the police said on Facebook. “The school is where the suspects found their target.”

[BIGUN 1,053]

There's going to be a lot of pointing at the Ukraine situation whenever the left attempts new gun legislation. 

[Stumpy 256]

15 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

There's going to be a lot of pointing at the Ukraine situation whenever the left attempts new gun legislation. 

The US is pretty analogous to Russia I guess.

[Phil1111 910]

34 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

There's going to be a lot of pointing at the Ukraine situation whenever the left attempts new gun legislation. 

 

17 minutes ago, Stumpy said:

The US is pretty analogous to Russia I guess.

Lots of cheap shots lately.

[brenthutch 383]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

There's going to be a lot of pointing at the Ukraine situation whenever the left attempts new gun legislation. 

When people ask me why anyone would need an AR-15 with a thirty round magazine, I tell them to turn on the news.

[Stumpy 256]

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

 

Lots of cheap shots lately.

Not really - if you are identifying with Ukraine - the "plucky underdog", then you're kidding yourself.

[Phil1111 910]

10 minutes ago, Stumpy said:

Not really - if you are identifying with Ukraine - the "plucky underdog", then you're kidding yourself.

I suppose.

[BIGUN 1,053]

52 minutes ago, Stumpy said:

Not really

Ya know, Phil always brings a point to the table, provides references and cites sources. You. Not so much. We may not always agree, but I can't remember him just throwing out some useless barb. 

[kallend 1,623]

And another.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/14/boy-3-accidentally-shoots-mother-chicago-suburb

Where are the good guys who are going to protect us from 3 year-olds with guns?

[billeisele 122]

On 3/14/2022 at 6:21 PM, kallend said:

And another.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/14/boy-3-accidentally-shoots-mother-chicago-suburb

Where are the good guys who are going to protect us from 3 year-olds with guns?

One of the same old issues. How does one secure a gun AND have it readily available for self-protection? A cable lock through the barrel, as suggested in the article, makes a gun unavailable in an emergency.

In this particular case it would be interesting to know why no one noticed the child finding the gun and using the gun. Where was the gun located? Was there any reasonable attempt to have the gun in a safe place? Was no one watching the 3-year old? Maybe heads buried in the smart phones? 

[kallend 1,623]

1 hour ago, billeisele said:

One of the same old issues. How does one secure a gun AND have it readily available for self-protection? A cable lock through the barrel, as suggested in the article, makes a gun unavailable in an emergency.

In this particular case it would be interesting to know why no one noticed the child finding the gun and using the gun. Where was the gun located? Was there any reasonable attempt to have the gun in a safe place? Was no one watching the 3-year old? Maybe heads buried in the smart phones? 

Funny that infants with guns are not shooting people in, say, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Australia, New Zealand, Netherlands, Austria, Sweden, Norway, or a myriad other nations.  Do they not have smart phones in those nations?

 

Or could it possibly be something else that makes the USA particularly susceptible to this type of event?

[billeisele 122]

4 minutes ago, kallend said:

Funny that infants with guns are not shooting people in, say, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Australia, New Zealand, Netherlands, Austria, Sweden, Norway, or a myriad other nations.  Do they not have smart phones in those nations?

 

Or could it possibly be something else that makes the USA particularly susceptible to this type of event?

John - yep, big difference between those countries, it's not news

Until there is an absolutely effective method to disarm the thugs that ignore all laws then the lawful will not be open to disarming. IMO

Just look at the microcosm of Chicago. Has anything been effective at disarming the thugs?

[wmw999 2,121]

Funny how only the US has such a large percentage of armed thugs. It’s almost like the arms race all over again. Or spending all your money on a lawyer to screw over your ex, because the other guy “losing” is the most important result.

Wendy P. 

[kallend 1,623]

10 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Funny how only the US has such a large percentage of armed thugs. It’s almost like the arms race all over again. Or spending all your money on a lawyer to screw over your ex, because the other guy “losing” is the most important result.

Wendy P. 

There's always an explanation, however ludicrous, that avoids invoking the ready availability of guns.

[billvon 2,396]

3 hours ago, billeisele said:

In this particular case it would be interesting to know why no one noticed the child finding the gun and using the gun. Where was the gun located? Was there any reasonable attempt to have the gun in a safe place?

Perhaps the gun's owner was not willing to make the gun inaccessible for self protection, because otherwise he would be fearful that one of those thugs would invade his home and kill him.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

2 hours ago, billeisele said:

Until there is an absolutely effective method to disarm the thugs that ignore all laws then the lawful will not be open to disarming. IMO

What if the method you are using to counteract the armed thugs is actually increasing the number of armed thugs?

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

9 hours ago, billeisele said:

One of the same old issues. How does one secure a gun AND have it readily available for self-protection? A cable lock through the barrel, as suggested in the article, makes a gun unavailable in an emergency.

In this particular case it would be interesting to know why no one noticed the child finding the gun and using the gun. Where was the gun located? Was there any reasonable attempt to have the gun in a safe place? Was no one watching the 3-year old? Maybe heads buried in the smart phones? 

Hi Bill,

Here, in Oregon, you can't.  It must be locked up.

How fast does one need to get their gun & have it ready to go?

How long does it take someone to break into a house?

Jerry Baumchen

[billeisele 122]

1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Bill,

Here, in Oregon, you can't.  It must be locked up.

How fast does one need to get their gun & have it ready to go?

How long does it take someone to break into a house?

Jerry Baumchen

Hey Jerry - I understand. I agree with you, in many, possibly most, cases it wouldn't be an issue. You and I don't live in areas where this would be a concern. Others do.

In the case being referenced, they were in a car. One would think that in that environment, immediate access would be needed. The article doesn't provide sufficient info to understand what occurred, other than the shooting.