More sacrifices to the 2nd Amendment

[JoeWeber 2,670]

17 minutes ago, ryoder said:

Hell, I never knew about this!

GeorgiaDon was talking about someone else.

Woke or un-woke, gender or mis-gendered, Trump loving or not, homosexual or straight or some variation, or sadly the feeling that you must kill those closest to you to escape, and on and on. What goes on at the level of the brain defies any possible current understanding. It might be intellectually satisfying to be reductionist, and certain, but things and our personal understandings are always more complex. The truth is that we really don't have a clue why we feel the way we do or why we act on those feelings the way we do. But we each and every one of us is always on the precipice of being something other than we think we are. Hence, judge not your fellow beings for their quirks because you just cannot know whether or not you are next up.

[kallend 1,922]

8 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Woke or un-woke, gender or mis-gendered, Trump loving or not, homosexual or straight or some variation, or sadly the feeling that you must kill those closest to you to escape, and on and on. What goes on at the level of the brain defies any possible current understanding. It might be intellectually satisfying to be reductionist, and certain, but things and our personal understandings are always more complex. The truth is that we really don't have a clue why we feel the way we do or why we act on those feelings the way we do. But we each and every one of us is always on the precipice of being something other than we think we are. Hence, judge not your fellow beings for their quirks because you just cannot know whether or not you are next up.

Absurdly easy access to firearms just makes a bad outcome more likely.

[JoeWeber 2,670]

30 minutes ago, kallend said:

Absurdly easy access to firearms just makes a bad outcome more likely.

If you like, but that ostensible truth doesn't void the fact that whatever was the brain chemistry rebalance, or sudden electrical storm, that caused the subject to grab a gun and murder his family is still a mystery. Nor does it void the fact that a butcher knife has the same utility. Of course the proliferation of guns in America is a huge contributor to these events, you won't get an argument from me, but clearly there is a lot more involved that can't be known from making a few jumps together or giving them a good look over. As I recall, Ted Bundy was a rather benign and pleasant looking fellow who preferred bludgeoning over shooting.

Edited October 27 by JoeWeber

[gowlerk 2,155]

1 hour ago, kallend said:

Absurdly easy access to firearms just makes a bad outcome more likely.

And that is the bottom line.

[gowlerk 2,155]

58 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Nor does it void the fact that a butcher knife has the same utility. 

Show me an example of an angry 15 year old boy massacring his family with a butcher knife. Or any other method not involving a firearm. I’ll wait.

[JoeWeber 2,670]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

Show me an example of an angry 15 year old boy massacring his family with a butcher knife. Or any other method not involving a firearm. I’ll wait.

My bad. I thought Billy Vance was much older. No matter, the point was that reductionist thinking might be good for the feels but that even though we have too many guns and have too often glorified their use the problem is vastly more complex. I'd guess your solution is the wholesale confiscation of any type of firearm that has ever been used in a family massacre. Given how many massacres we've seen that would probably cover most guns so if it could happen we'd have a winner. But that's not happening, and you know it. None of that means we shouldn't also look hard at what causes these never saw it coming events.

[jakee 1,426]

10 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

My bad. I thought Billy Vance was much older.

Billy had his psychological issues and money troubles for years and years and years. He had his gun for what, 3 months before using it? Correlation doesn’t imply causation but it winks very heavily in its general direction.

[JoeWeber 2,670]

7 minutes ago, jakee said:

Billy had his psychological issues and money troubles for years and years and years. He had his gun for what, 3 months before using it? Correlation doesn’t imply causation but it winks very heavily in its general direction.

Agreed, absolutely. I was simply thinking, given that the prospect of any meaningful firearms regulation or control in America makes intractable seem a silly word, there was no reason not to consider other contributing factors that might have solutions. 

[gowlerk 2,155]

7 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

given that the prospect of any meaningful firearms regulation or control in America makes intractable seem a silly word, there was no reason not to consider other contributing factors that might have solutions. 

I'm sure that in the end you will find that human nature is even more intractable and difficult to change than the 2nd. One is possible. The other is not.

[billvon 2,877]

10 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Nor does it void the fact that a butcher knife has the same utility.

But, in reality, it doesn't.

We had a poster here who was regularly claiming "you can kill someone with a SPOON!  What, are you going to BAN SPOONS?"  But again, here in reality, people don't go on murder sprees with spoons.

There's a reason that the American Academy of Pediatrics supports better gun control so strongly.  Because they see a lot of kids killed by guns, and they'd rather not have to try to put them back together again, and tell them they will never walk or talk normally again.  (Or worse yet, tell their families they're dead.)  And they simply don't see the victims of butcher knife or spoon murder sprees.  So they are not calling for better knife or spoon control.

[JoeWeber 2,670]

18 minutes ago, billvon said:

But, in reality, it doesn't.

We had a poster here who was regularly claiming "you can kill someone with a SPOON!  What, are you going to BAN SPOONS?"  But again, here in reality, people don't go on murder sprees with spoons.

There's a reason that the American Academy of Pediatrics supports better gun control so strongly.  Because they see a lot of kids killed by guns, and they'd rather not have to try to put them back together again, and tell them they will never walk or talk normally again.  (Or worse yet, tell their families they're dead.)  And they simply don't see the victims of butcher knife or spoon murder sprees.  So they are not calling for better knife or spoon control.

A butcher knife might be less effective and wouldn't be a first choice when you absolutely, positively need to kill every mother fucker in the room, agreed. But it can be used to kill and so has a certain utility for the chore. But of course that really wasn't my point nor is it my desire to do the knee jerk right wing thing and place all blame on the shooter and not address gun proliferation or our gun culture. Maybe we could test the theory and place bucket of knives and a bucket of pistols in both the local nuthouse and bingo parlor and examine the results.

[JoeWeber 2,670]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

I'm sure that in the end you will find that human nature is even more intractable and difficult to change than the 2nd. One is possible. The other is not.

Hmmm.. the thing is, and with respect to your original proposition for the thread, that's not the choice. Keep in mind that the 2nd Amendment is an optimistic collection of words born of a past sentiment. In today's US of A our 400 million guns aren't going anywhere no matter any additional or re-amendments. The dice are cast.

[gowlerk 2,155]

8 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

In today's US of A our 400 million guns aren't going anywhere no matter any additional or re-amendments.

Just pry them from their cold dead hands. Yes America is special. Laws don't work there.

[JoeWeber 2,670]

3 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Yes America is special. Laws don't work there.

That's no longer funny.

[lippy 891]

The reality is that we're unlikely to change the fact that an unstable person can get their hands on a firearm in the US.  We'd probably all like that to not be the case, and maybe sometime down the road it'll change, but it ain't gonna happen tomorrow.  Not trying to put words in Joe's mouth, but I take his point to be that it's at least worthwhile trying to take steps to minimize the damage: is it not worth trying to find steps to minimize the chance of Billy - having decided that he's done with the world - at least doesn't make that decision for anybody other than himself and not for the rest of his family at the same time?

I don't know what those steps would be, but that discussion seems more worthwhile than wish-casting the end of prevalent guns or making sarcastic comments about laws not working in the US.  

[gowlerk 2,155]

29 minutes ago, lippy said:

I don't know what those steps would be, but that discussion seems more worthwhile than wish-casting the end of prevalent guns or making sarcastic comments about laws not working in the US.  

The reason you don't know what those steps would be is plain. There are none.

[ryoder 1,590]

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

A butcher knife might be less effective and wouldn't be a first choice when you absolutely, positively need to kill every mother fucker in the room, agreed. But it can be used to kill and so has a certain utility for the chore. But of course that really wasn't my point nor is it my desire to do the knee jerk right wing thing and place all blame on the shooter and not address gun proliferation or our gun culture. Maybe we could test the theory and place bucket of knives and a bucket of pistols in both the local nuthouse and bingo parlor and examine the results.

+1 for the "Jackie Brown" reference.

[billvon 2,877]

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

 In today's US of A our 400 million guns aren't going anywhere

They did in Australia.  All it takes is the will.

[JoeWeber 2,670]

13 minutes ago, billvon said:

They did in Australia.  All it takes is the will.

I've done 5 four month + travels in Australia back to back looking for a place to live. My sense was they have a different will.

[Stumpy 284]

3 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

I've done 5 four month + travels in Australia back to back looking for a place to live. My sense was they have a different will.

They also didn't have anywhere near the volume of problem, or the idiotic mentality bar a few outliers who were VERY much in the minority.

[tkhayes 324]

7 hours ago, billvon said:

They did in Australia.  All it takes is the will.

Family homicide in Australia | Australian Institute of Criminology - would seem on the surface that they do in fact have a lower rate of family homicide, but trying to find any data that compares country to country seems difficult if not futile.

yeah you can use a butcher knife, hell you can probably kill your family with a banana, if you try hard enough, but the odds of escaping such an attack or avoiding such an attack, versus a gun is definitely a factor.

And Billy Vance is still a murdering cunt

Edited October 28 by tkhayes

[JoeWeber 2,670]

56 minutes ago, tkhayes said:

cunt

TK, brother, this one we really need to leave behind.

[normiss 749]

1 hour ago, tkhayes said:

Family homicide in Australia | Australian Institute of Criminology - would seem on the surface that they do in fact have a lower rate of family homicide, but trying to find any data that compares country to country seems difficult if not futile.

yeah you can use a butcher knife, hell you can probably kill your family with a banana, if you try hard enough, but the odds of escaping such an attack or avoiding such an attack, versus a gun is definitely a factor.

And Billy Vance is still a murdering cunt

I was livid when I found out the gun nutter BV murdered his family - my anger got me a vacation here.

It still makes me angry as all fuck to see someone murder their children.

Americans seem to prefer to ignore the "well regulated" part of the Second. Yet another thing I'll never understand.

Americans have zero fucks to give about fellow citizens lives. The price of gas at the pump though....

[SkyDekker 1,393]

17 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Hmmm.. the thing is, and with respect to your original proposition for the thread, that's not the choice. Keep in mind that the 2nd Amendment is an optimistic collection of words born of a past sentiment. In today's US of A our 400 million guns aren't going anywhere no matter any additional or re-amendments. The dice are cast.

Sure it would change. It just takes time. But that isn't a reason not to do the right thing.

[billvon 2,877]

15 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

I've done 5 four month + travels in Australia back to back looking for a place to live. My sense was they have a different will.

Indeed.  We could find the same strength of will - if we wanted to.