More sacrifices to the 2nd Amendment

[JoeWeber 1,866]

2 hours ago, timski said:

I get that you only know me from what I type here. You couldn't be further from who I truly am... Not that I'm here to make friends or sell myself. I'm here because I'm a skydiver, with time to burn and opinions...

Fair enough, I apologize.

[BIGUN 1,000]

On 4/28/2023 at 6:54 AM, gowlerk said:

random events like school shootings is that they are so random.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_total_probability#:~:text=In probability theory%2C the law,distinct events%2C hence the name.

[normiss 422]

On 4/29/2023 at 7:47 PM, wmw999 said:

It’s the kind of neighborhood where the police don’t go “just” for a report of gunfire. Also, the murdered family was from Honduras; not all may have been in the US legally. The shooter also spoke Spanish; they may have decided to try to deal with it neighbor to neighbor. Is that really so unreasonable? It’s easy to say stupid is as stupid does in hindsight, though, isn’t it?

Wendy P. 

It also appears that Texas cops are deathly afraid of confronting AR type weapons.

 

[DougH 236]

On 3/28/2023 at 10:17 AM, BIGUN said:

How many times are we going to let this record skip before we change the tune. That's the fucking point. A complete Gun Owner's Responsibility Bill. Ownership tracking from cradle to grave, weapon education and recurrency, proper storage, 10 years for use of a gun in the commission of a crime (bet domestic violence with a gun would go way down), etc. etc. we can discuss it more with the next fucking school shooting, cause ya know  . . . we'd rather spend more time typing on SC than spending a few minutes writing in the text box to our congressional and senatorial leadership.  

1000x, but I would go further.

As a gunowner I have said multiple times in one way or another that I think my rights should be tempered with evaluations and continued monitoring.

I live in MA where there are a bunch of  gun laws that restrict ownership, but none of them directly tackle the problem. People owning guns that are unfit to own them. There is an assault weapons ban, large capacity laws. But none of the laws truly evaluate my fitness to own a firearm. I could go buy an assault weapon that was manufactured before the enactment date of the original federal assault weapon ban, and I could buy a storage locker full of "pre-ban" magazines. Totally legal. The only hinderance is a much higher cost because of supply and demand, there are only so many pre-ban guns and magazines to buy.

There was no true evaluation of my mental health, and no real check that I am not a reckless moron aside from attending a brief NRA firearms safety class. I could be bat shit crazy, with huge anger issues from day 1, and if I managed to avoid getting entangled with the legal or mental health system it would completely fly under the radar because I could mask long enough for my 10 minute conversation with the officer assigned to process permits at the local police station.

Or maybe I was previously fit to own firearms, but recently lost my job, got divorced, and have been having getting increasingly isolated. Maybe I have start to become unhinged after feeding myself a steady stream of extremist videos on YouTube. There is no system to catch that either, short of someone spotting outward signs and reporting me to law enforcement.

I like my firearms, but I also know the risk they pose. I think it would be complete reasonable to have yearly evaluations of my gun safety knowledge, practical evaluations of my handling of them, a check on my gun storage, and a mental health evaluation that includes interviews of acquaintances for character evaluation.

Edited May 1 by DougH

[Phil1111 691]

On 4/29/2023 at 5:47 PM, wmw999 said:

It’s the kind of neighborhood where the police don’t go “just” for a report of gunfire. Also, the murdered family was from Honduras; not all may have been in the US legally. The shooter also spoke Spanish; they may have decided to try to deal with it neighbor to neighbor. Is that really so unreasonable? It’s easy to say stupid is as stupid does in hindsight, though, isn’t it?

Wendy P. 

NBC reporters from the scene of the crime. Reported that every weekend there was recreational shooting on other properties on that street. The homeowner where the victims were shot. Reported that five calls to police were made over 20 minutes before the homicides started. The good news: There were twelve people in the home at the time so it could have been worse.

Armed neighbors who regularly practice didn't make it any safer.Calling police didn't make it any safer.

[JoeWeber 1,866]

18 minutes ago, DougH said:

1000x, but I would go further.

As a gunowner I have said multiple times in one way or another that I think my rights should be tempered with evaluations and continued monitoring.

I live in MA where there are a bunch of  gun laws that restrict ownership, but none of them directly tackle the problem. People owning guns that are unfit to own them. There is an assault weapons ban, large capacity laws. But none of the laws truly evaluate my fitness to own a firearm. I could go buy an assault weapon that was manufactured before the enactment date of the original federal assault weapon ban, and I could buy a storage locker full of "pre-ban" magazines. Totally legal. The only hinderance is a much higher cost because of supply and demand, there are only so many pre-ban guns and magazines to buy.

There was no true evaluation of my mental health, and no real check that I am not a reckless moron aside from attending a brief NRA firearms safety class. I could be bat shit crazy, with huge anger issues from day 1, and if I managed to avoid getting entangled with the legal or mental health system it would completely fly under the radar because I could mask long enough for my 10 minute conversation with the officer assigned to process permits at the local police station.

Or maybe I was previously fit to own firearms, but recently lost my job, got divorced, and have been having getting increasingly isolated. Maybe I have start to become unhinged after feeding myself a steady stream of extremist videos on YouTube. There is no system to catch that either, short of someone spotting outward signs and reporting me to law enforcement.

I like my firearms, but I also know the risk they pose. I think it would be complete reasonable to have yearly evaluations of my gun safety knowledge, practical evaluations of my handling of them, a check on my gun storage, and a mental health evaluation that includes interviews of acquaintances for character evaluation.

I’m in agreement with all of your proposals even knowing the outcome of the interviews with my acquaintances. No matter, I guess, there aren’t any gophers or wood peckers at sea so what the hell.
 

[BIGUN 1,000]

29 minutes ago, DougH said:

There was no true evaluation of my mental health, and no real check that I am not a reckless moron aside from attending a brief NRA firearms safety class. I could be bat shit crazy, with huge anger issues from day 1, and if I managed to avoid getting entangled with the legal or mental health system it would completely fly under the radar because I could mask long enough for my 10 minute conversation with the officer assigned to process permits at the local police station.

Or maybe I was previously fit to own firearms, but recently lost my job, got divorced, and have been having getting increasingly isolated. Maybe I have start to become unhinged after feeding myself a steady stream of extremist videos on YouTube. There is no system to catch that either, short of someone spotting outward signs and reporting me to law enforcement.

Thanks for stepping in Doug. Quite frankly, I/we can identify the problem, but I personally don't feel qualified to address it for several reasons, 1) Having neighbors/acquaintances/family be interviewed about one's mental health can range from the, "He's a loon" (that is all noise and no action) to the, "He was such a nice kid," and 2) At what point are "we" becoming the old Soviet Union where neighbors rat out neighbors. I'm kind of resistant to having a "shoot first, ask questions later" type investigating people for mental health and feel like there's a better direction to take - although I don't really have an answer.    

[normiss 422]

10 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Thanks for stepping in Doug. Quite frankly, I/we can identify the problem, but I personally don't feel qualified to address it for several reasons, 1) Having neighbors/acquaintances/family be interviewed about one's mental health can range from the, "He's a loon" (that is all noise and no action) to the, "He was such a nice kid," and 2) At what point are "we" becoming the old Soviet Union where neighbors rat out neighbors. I'm kind of resistant to having a "shoot first, ask questions later" type investigating people for mental health and feel like there's a better direction to take - although I don't really have an answer.    

I had a couple of coworkers years ago claim that I had anger issues.

Because I liked to rev my Harley in the parking garage. Angry??? Hell I did it for the grins it gave me, it sounded AWESOME in the parking garage. My boss (also a biker) laughed when he heard it. Then he made a point of texting me on the days I left early. It was impossible to sneak out early on a Harley parked in the echo chamber that the garage created.

It made me wonder how the hell I ever received clearance for a TS/SCI, given they interviewed teachers, neighbors, friends, coworkers. I was pretty wild on motorcycles when I was in High School.

It also made me realize people will talk nonsense untruths about others. 

 

We have a neighbor who happily brags about always answering his door with gun in hand. Even when it was the little girl from next door, who simply wanted the Amazon package delivered to the wrong address. I honestly cannot imagine being that paranoid and scared. This is a former Army, 100% disability from cutting away his canopy after landing in the tall pine trees, blowing out both legs, knees, and ankles. We chuckled a little when he told us that story. Poor thing.

[DougH 236]

58 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Thanks for stepping in Doug. Quite frankly, I/we can identify the problem, but I personally don't feel qualified to address it for several reasons, 1) Having neighbors/acquaintances/family be interviewed about one's mental health can range from the, "He's a loon" (that is all noise and no action) to the, "He was such a nice kid," and 2) At what point are "we" becoming the old Soviet Union where neighbors rat out neighbors. I'm kind of resistant to having a "shoot first, ask questions later" type investigating people for mental health and feel like there's a better direction to take - although I don't really have an answer.    

I understand the concerns you raise, especially #2. I also get what Normiss is saying. 

In my fantasy world we should be able to build due process into the system, and I am not picturing a system of informing, rather I am thinking of a spectrum of evaluation where multiple data points are weighed against each other. 

For example, I think it would be fine to have people pick their own character references. The type of people you can or can't get to vouch for you is a data point itself. A change in the people you pick would also be a data point.

Why did you no longer use your parent and a close friend to be a reference. Is it because they were on vacation, or is it because the people that know you closely have had concerns about changes in your behavior.

Cap it with a robust system for timely appeal, that would protect against the fun hating coworkers that Normiss had.

Unfortunately this is ultimately nothing but a thought experiment about a dreadful problem because we don't have the political will to solve big complex problems in the country. 

 

 

Edited May 1 by DougH

[wmw999 1,720]

This is a really great conversation. I wish it had a chance of going somewhere. I’ve written my congressman; got my “I got your email it’s important to be involved” reply. But this is all part of the discussion.

Wendy P. 

[BIGUN 1,000]

21 minutes ago, DougH said:

Unfortunately this is ultimately nothing but a thought experiment about a dreadful problem because we don't have the political will to solve big complex problems in the country.

That is no shit. We can't get the congress critters to sit down with each other and talk about real-world shit. These days they only know how to slam each other on social media. Fuck what's best for the country.  

[SkyDekker 900]

On 4/29/2023 at 4:29 PM, timski said:

Certainly in NO way defending such an action, but when you have a complaint about someone shooting a firearm, YOU CALL 911,  you don't go knocking on his door... Stupid is as stupid does

Why? Should we automatically assume every person firing a firearm in the US is a psychopath?

[billvon 1,945]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

At what point are "we" becoming the old Soviet Union where neighbors rat out neighbors. I'm kind of resistant to having a "shoot first, ask questions later" type investigating people for mental health and feel like there's a better direction to take - although I don't really have an answer.    

That's a big issue, and I think one way to deal with that is to make mental health a much bigger part of "normal" health.  My doctor does a lot more than most, but still the questions are about "how are you feeling" "how much are you drinking" "are you finding it easy to get to sleep" etc.  Starting treatment earlier will remove a lot of the stigma from mental health treatment.  It will go from "he's crazy and he needs a shrink" to "went to the doctor the other day, working on my depression."

The reason I think this is doable in the long run is that it currently works for Class 1 medicals for the FAA, and there's not a lot of "ratting out" going on with other pilots.

[wmw999 1,720]

We have to get over the “real men just suck it up and deal with their issues” syndrome, too.

Wendy P. 

[GeorgiaDon 278]

On 4/29/2023 at 7:29 PM, timski said:

Certainly in NO way defending such an action, but when you have a complaint about someone shooting a firearm, YOU CALL 911,  you don't go knocking on his door... Stupid is as stupid does  ~Gump

See how easily that was avoided. Come on people. If you're going to run into the sound of gun fire, at least get paid to do so.   

A former friend, who happened to be a police officer, used to think it was funny when his neighbors complained about him target shooting in his back yard after 10 or 11 PM.  He had the same attitude as the gunman in Texas, I can do whatever the hell I want on my own property.  They neighbors soon learned the value of calling the cops about another cop.  Mostly when they showed up they would fire off a few rounds too.  BTW he's a former friend because he went full MAGA/Q and filled his facebook page with the most vile anti-immigrant crap and conspiracy theory bullshit.  It got personal, in part because I am an immigrant, although apparently that's OK in my case because Canadians are almost like Americans.

[GeorgiaDon 278]

3 hours ago, billvon said:

That's a big issue, and I think one way to deal with that is to make mental health a much bigger part of "normal" health.  My doctor does a lot more than most, but still the questions are about "how are you feeling" "how much are you drinking" "are you finding it easy to get to sleep" etc.  Starting treatment earlier will remove a lot of the stigma from mental health treatment.  It will go from "he's crazy and he needs a shrink" to "went to the doctor the other day, working on my depression."

The reason I think this is doable in the long run is that it currently works for Class 1 medicals for the FAA, and there's not a lot of "ratting out" going on with other pilots.

While I completely agree about the importance of improving access to, and de-stigmatizing mental health care, I am very skeptical that it will make much difference regarding mass shootings and other aspects of "gun violence".  Most people who suffer from mental illness are not aware of their illness, or are in denial about it.  Only a small fraction seek care of their own volition.  I found out from personal experience that it is basically impossible to force treatment on someone who does not want it.  I also found out, in another instance, that the wait time to get an appointment is months or longer.  The only way to get around these barriers and delays is for the patient to commit a violent crime.  Of course then you have victims, and the mentally ill person is now in the hands of the criminal justice system that does not do a good job of treating people as patients that need care.

Especially when it comes to the sort of people who are inclined to use firearms to commit violent acts, I think it is very unlikely that they will see themselves as having a problem needing medical care.  They are aggrieved, easily angered, paranoid, and fully convinced that they are right and everyone else is out to get them.  Basically perfect customers for the firearms sales industry. 

In a society that strongly values medical privacy, the right to choose or reject medical treatment (excepting reproductive rights for women of course), and the right to own any kind of firearm you might desire, the pairing of extreme anger/paranoia with lethal weaponry is inevitable and unavoidable. 

[billvon 1,945]

8 minutes ago, GeorgiaDon said:

Most people who suffer from mental illness are not aware of their illness, or are in denial about it.  Only a small fraction seek care of their own volition. 

Agreed there.  

This is a larger problem and probably beyond ths scope of the discussion, but most of the world realizes that regular healthcare (even just checkups) is not only critical, but it's cheaper than the alternative, which is that the person just keeps doing whatever until they are too sick to do it, then they head to a doctor and say "fix me!"  Early interventions are pretty much always cheaper and pretty much always have better outcomes.  As an example of this, if you can get pregnant women to a doctor early in their pregnancy, outcomes improve by almost a factor of 3 - and sometimes the care is nothing more than giving them prenatal vitamins.

Our healthcare system is not set up to drive this.  About the best we do is make regular checkups free in most health care coverages, but getting to people to go to them is a different story.  "Why should I go. I'm perfectly healthy" etc.

If we can solve that problem, that helps immensely with healthcare screening.  Because doctors are pretty good at reading early signs of dementia, dissociative disorders, bipolar disorder etc even if the person doesn't come in complaining about hearing voices.

As you mentioned, another problem is having those services available to begin with.  Sadly, in general the exact same people who raise the cry of "it's a mental health issue, not a gun issue!" are also the people who fight tooth and nail against any spending on health care to expand such services.

Quote

I found out from personal experience that it is basically impossible to force treatment on someone who does not want it. 

Yep.  But if you do know about it, you can at least 1) make care available and 2) prevent them from (for example) flying/driving passengers or owning guns.  And if getting that mental healthcare is a requirement for buying more guns, that's a strong incentive for such people to get it.

 

 

 

[SkyDekker 900]

5 hours ago, BIGUN said:

That is no shit. We can't get the congress critters to sit down with each other and talk about real-world shit. These days they only know how to slam each other on social media. Fuck what's best for the country.  

Not sure this is entirely true. Politicians have had no problem creating an environment where it becomes illegal to teach sex-education but make it mandatory to teach bleeding control techniques and the use of battle field tourniquets. 
 

 

https://legiscan.com/TX/text/HB1147/2023
 

this isn’t due to inaction of politicians, this is due to specific and determined actions by politicians. 

[BIGUN 1,000]

1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

mandatory to teach bleeding control techniques and the use of battle field tourniquets. 

<hangs head> Why not just put on a combat lifesaver course in every school.

[timski 68]

22 hours ago, wmw999 said:

I’d be interested in your answer to what Jakee or I said in response to your comment

Wendy P. 

Both of you are reaching for straws as well. honestly, what would have been YOUR actions to gun fire next door??? Keep in mind the details, after hours... It's becoming clear that many of you here lack common sense with your degrees. I get that avoidable bloodshed gets everyone worked up, and rightly so, But me pointing out the obvious shouldn't have you calling ME part of the "problem". Wake the fuck up people. 

[wmw999 1,720]

How about that the police got numerous calls about that guy, that evening, and didn’t answer? It’s kind of like being armed and Black vs being armed and Bubba

Wendy P. 

[timski 68]

4 hours ago, GeorgiaDon said:

A former friend, who happened to be a police officer, used to think it was funny when his neighbors complained about him target shooting in his back yard after 10 or 11 PM.  He had the same attitude as the gunman in Texas, I can do whatever the hell I want on my own property.  They neighbors soon learned the value of calling the cops about another cop.  Mostly when they showed up they would fire off a few rounds too.  BTW he's a former friend because he went full MAGA/Q and filled his facebook page with the most vile anti-immigrant crap and conspiracy theory bullshit.  It got personal, in part because I am an immigrant, although apparently that's OK in my case because Canadians are almost like Americans.

Unfortunately that kind of thing happens. EVERYONE has a boss. It sucks that sometimes you have to go digging to find the right people until you get the answers/help you're looking for. 

[wolfriverjoe 1,094]

13 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

How about that the police got numerous calls about that guy, that evening, and didn’t answer? It’s kind of like being armed and Black vs being armed and Bubba

Wendy P. 

Kind of like the difference between the BLM protesters in Portland (arrested 'proactively') or the ones who sat on the lawn of the Kentucky AG in protest of the Brianna Taylor muder (arrested & charged with felonies) vs the ones who entered the Michigan Capitol building armed to the teeth (nothing) or the ones who stormed the US Capitol on Jan 6 (allowed to leave, although arrested later).

[JoeWeber 1,866]

41 minutes ago, timski said:

Both of you are reaching for straws as well. honestly, what would have been YOUR actions to gun fire next door??? Keep in mind the details, after hours... It's becoming clear that many of you here lack common sense with your degrees. I get that avoidable bloodshed gets everyone worked up, and rightly so, But me pointing out the obvious shouldn't have you calling ME part of the "problem". Wake the fuck up people. 

Negative. Gun nutters want us all to believe that sporting your iron on your hip like Wyatt Earp is normal and folks firing off their guns anywhere there aren’t local ordinances against it is a reasonable part of the new American experience. We say no. You effectively said yes which puts you in the gun nutters camp. Besides recent arrival Hondurans, who else should call the cops? Abused women? Vets with PSTD? People with hunting dogs that now think it’s duck season? You gave buy off to the Brent’s and NRA’s of the world and were lumped in for you efforts. You’re welcome.

[jakee 981]

7 hours ago, timski said:

Both of you are reaching for straws as well. honestly, what would have been YOUR actions to gun fire next door??? Keep in mind the details, after hours... It's becoming clear that many of you here lack common sense with your degrees. I get that avoidable bloodshed gets everyone worked up, and rightly so, But me pointing out the obvious shouldn't have you calling ME part of the "problem". Wake the fuck up people. 

Have you never heard of people being threatened or killed in retaliation for calling the cops? This guy is clearly a psycho and without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight there’s no telling what could have set him off.

 

Wake the fuck up and stop being so naive.

Edited May 2 by jakee