More sacrifices to the 2nd Amendment

[SkyDekker 1,121]

On 4/29/2023 at 4:29 PM, timski said:

Certainly in NO way defending such an action, but when you have a complaint about someone shooting a firearm, YOU CALL 911,  you don't go knocking on his door... Stupid is as stupid does

Why? Should we automatically assume every person firing a firearm in the US is a psychopath?

[billvon 2,395]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

At what point are "we" becoming the old Soviet Union where neighbors rat out neighbors. I'm kind of resistant to having a "shoot first, ask questions later" type investigating people for mental health and feel like there's a better direction to take - although I don't really have an answer.    

That's a big issue, and I think one way to deal with that is to make mental health a much bigger part of "normal" health.  My doctor does a lot more than most, but still the questions are about "how are you feeling" "how much are you drinking" "are you finding it easy to get to sleep" etc.  Starting treatment earlier will remove a lot of the stigma from mental health treatment.  It will go from "he's crazy and he needs a shrink" to "went to the doctor the other day, working on my depression."

The reason I think this is doable in the long run is that it currently works for Class 1 medicals for the FAA, and there's not a lot of "ratting out" going on with other pilots.

[wmw999 2,120]

We have to get over the “real men just suck it up and deal with their issues” syndrome, too.

Wendy P. 

[GeorgiaDon 340]

On 4/29/2023 at 7:29 PM, timski said:

Certainly in NO way defending such an action, but when you have a complaint about someone shooting a firearm, YOU CALL 911,  you don't go knocking on his door... Stupid is as stupid does  ~Gump

See how easily that was avoided. Come on people. If you're going to run into the sound of gun fire, at least get paid to do so.   

A former friend, who happened to be a police officer, used to think it was funny when his neighbors complained about him target shooting in his back yard after 10 or 11 PM.  He had the same attitude as the gunman in Texas, I can do whatever the hell I want on my own property.  They neighbors soon learned the value of calling the cops about another cop.  Mostly when they showed up they would fire off a few rounds too.  BTW he's a former friend because he went full MAGA/Q and filled his facebook page with the most vile anti-immigrant crap and conspiracy theory bullshit.  It got personal, in part because I am an immigrant, although apparently that's OK in my case because Canadians are almost like Americans.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

3 hours ago, billvon said:

That's a big issue, and I think one way to deal with that is to make mental health a much bigger part of "normal" health.  My doctor does a lot more than most, but still the questions are about "how are you feeling" "how much are you drinking" "are you finding it easy to get to sleep" etc.  Starting treatment earlier will remove a lot of the stigma from mental health treatment.  It will go from "he's crazy and he needs a shrink" to "went to the doctor the other day, working on my depression."

The reason I think this is doable in the long run is that it currently works for Class 1 medicals for the FAA, and there's not a lot of "ratting out" going on with other pilots.

While I completely agree about the importance of improving access to, and de-stigmatizing mental health care, I am very skeptical that it will make much difference regarding mass shootings and other aspects of "gun violence".  Most people who suffer from mental illness are not aware of their illness, or are in denial about it.  Only a small fraction seek care of their own volition.  I found out from personal experience that it is basically impossible to force treatment on someone who does not want it.  I also found out, in another instance, that the wait time to get an appointment is months or longer.  The only way to get around these barriers and delays is for the patient to commit a violent crime.  Of course then you have victims, and the mentally ill person is now in the hands of the criminal justice system that does not do a good job of treating people as patients that need care.

Especially when it comes to the sort of people who are inclined to use firearms to commit violent acts, I think it is very unlikely that they will see themselves as having a problem needing medical care.  They are aggrieved, easily angered, paranoid, and fully convinced that they are right and everyone else is out to get them.  Basically perfect customers for the firearms sales industry. 

In a society that strongly values medical privacy, the right to choose or reject medical treatment (excepting reproductive rights for women of course), and the right to own any kind of firearm you might desire, the pairing of extreme anger/paranoia with lethal weaponry is inevitable and unavoidable. 

[billvon 2,395]

8 minutes ago, GeorgiaDon said:

Most people who suffer from mental illness are not aware of their illness, or are in denial about it.  Only a small fraction seek care of their own volition. 

Agreed there.  

This is a larger problem and probably beyond ths scope of the discussion, but most of the world realizes that regular healthcare (even just checkups) is not only critical, but it's cheaper than the alternative, which is that the person just keeps doing whatever until they are too sick to do it, then they head to a doctor and say "fix me!"  Early interventions are pretty much always cheaper and pretty much always have better outcomes.  As an example of this, if you can get pregnant women to a doctor early in their pregnancy, outcomes improve by almost a factor of 3 - and sometimes the care is nothing more than giving them prenatal vitamins.

Our healthcare system is not set up to drive this.  About the best we do is make regular checkups free in most health care coverages, but getting to people to go to them is a different story.  "Why should I go. I'm perfectly healthy" etc.

If we can solve that problem, that helps immensely with healthcare screening.  Because doctors are pretty good at reading early signs of dementia, dissociative disorders, bipolar disorder etc even if the person doesn't come in complaining about hearing voices.

As you mentioned, another problem is having those services available to begin with.  Sadly, in general the exact same people who raise the cry of "it's a mental health issue, not a gun issue!" are also the people who fight tooth and nail against any spending on health care to expand such services.

Quote

I found out from personal experience that it is basically impossible to force treatment on someone who does not want it. 

Yep.  But if you do know about it, you can at least 1) make care available and 2) prevent them from (for example) flying/driving passengers or owning guns.  And if getting that mental healthcare is a requirement for buying more guns, that's a strong incentive for such people to get it.

 

 

 

[SkyDekker 1,121]

5 hours ago, BIGUN said:

That is no shit. We can't get the congress critters to sit down with each other and talk about real-world shit. These days they only know how to slam each other on social media. Fuck what's best for the country.  

Not sure this is entirely true. Politicians have had no problem creating an environment where it becomes illegal to teach sex-education but make it mandatory to teach bleeding control techniques and the use of battle field tourniquets. 
 

 

https://legiscan.com/TX/text/HB1147/2023
 

this isn’t due to inaction of politicians, this is due to specific and determined actions by politicians. 

[BIGUN 1,051]

1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

mandatory to teach bleeding control techniques and the use of battle field tourniquets. 

<hangs head> Why not just put on a combat lifesaver course in every school.

[timski 80]

22 hours ago, wmw999 said:

I’d be interested in your answer to what Jakee or I said in response to your comment

Wendy P. 

Both of you are reaching for straws as well. honestly, what would have been YOUR actions to gun fire next door??? Keep in mind the details, after hours... It's becoming clear that many of you here lack common sense with your degrees. I get that avoidable bloodshed gets everyone worked up, and rightly so, But me pointing out the obvious shouldn't have you calling ME part of the "problem". Wake the fuck up people. 

[wmw999 2,120]

How about that the police got numerous calls about that guy, that evening, and didn’t answer? It’s kind of like being armed and Black vs being armed and Bubba

Wendy P. 

[timski 80]

4 hours ago, GeorgiaDon said:

A former friend, who happened to be a police officer, used to think it was funny when his neighbors complained about him target shooting in his back yard after 10 or 11 PM.  He had the same attitude as the gunman in Texas, I can do whatever the hell I want on my own property.  They neighbors soon learned the value of calling the cops about another cop.  Mostly when they showed up they would fire off a few rounds too.  BTW he's a former friend because he went full MAGA/Q and filled his facebook page with the most vile anti-immigrant crap and conspiracy theory bullshit.  It got personal, in part because I am an immigrant, although apparently that's OK in my case because Canadians are almost like Americans.

Unfortunately that kind of thing happens. EVERYONE has a boss. It sucks that sometimes you have to go digging to find the right people until you get the answers/help you're looking for. 

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

13 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

How about that the police got numerous calls about that guy, that evening, and didn’t answer? It’s kind of like being armed and Black vs being armed and Bubba

Wendy P. 

Kind of like the difference between the BLM protesters in Portland (arrested 'proactively') or the ones who sat on the lawn of the Kentucky AG in protest of the Brianna Taylor muder (arrested & charged with felonies) vs the ones who entered the Michigan Capitol building armed to the teeth (nothing) or the ones who stormed the US Capitol on Jan 6 (allowed to leave, although arrested later).

[JoeWeber 2,297]

41 minutes ago, timski said:

Both of you are reaching for straws as well. honestly, what would have been YOUR actions to gun fire next door??? Keep in mind the details, after hours... It's becoming clear that many of you here lack common sense with your degrees. I get that avoidable bloodshed gets everyone worked up, and rightly so, But me pointing out the obvious shouldn't have you calling ME part of the "problem". Wake the fuck up people. 

Negative. Gun nutters want us all to believe that sporting your iron on your hip like Wyatt Earp is normal and folks firing off their guns anywhere there aren’t local ordinances against it is a reasonable part of the new American experience. We say no. You effectively said yes which puts you in the gun nutters camp. Besides recent arrival Hondurans, who else should call the cops? Abused women? Vets with PSTD? People with hunting dogs that now think it’s duck season? You gave buy off to the Brent’s and NRA’s of the world and were lumped in for you efforts. You’re welcome.

[jakee 1,254]

7 hours ago, timski said:

Both of you are reaching for straws as well. honestly, what would have been YOUR actions to gun fire next door??? Keep in mind the details, after hours... It's becoming clear that many of you here lack common sense with your degrees. I get that avoidable bloodshed gets everyone worked up, and rightly so, But me pointing out the obvious shouldn't have you calling ME part of the "problem". Wake the fuck up people. 

Have you never heard of people being threatened or killed in retaliation for calling the cops? This guy is clearly a psycho and without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight there’s no telling what could have set him off.

 

Wake the fuck up and stop being so naive.

Edited May 2, 2023 by jakee

[GeorgiaDon 340]

10 hours ago, jakee said:

Have you never heard of people being threatened or killed in retaliation for calling the cops? This guy is clearly a psycho and without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight there’s no telling what could have set him off.

 

Wake the fuck up and stop being so naive.

According to a news article, the shooter's wife was friendly with the women he killed.  The shooter had been over to the house at least a few times socially and was friendly.  He even helped to take down some trees.  So, at least not consistently psycho.  Maybe mostly when he had been drinking, as he was on the night of the shooting?  Anyway I think that's all part of the problem with the "mental health" argument.  Most of these murderers are likely to be perfectly normal most of the time, up until the point where something sets them off.  They would be easier to recognize as a threat if they were insane all the time, not just at sporadic intervals.

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi folks,

The grim discovery in Oklahoma keeps the U.S. on a torrid pace for mass killings in 2023 and could push the number of people slain in mass killings past 100 for the year.

Woman IDs 4 of 7 Oklahoma bodies as daughter, grandchildren | AP News

Maybe it will stop when there is no one left to kill.

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  Just saw this:  Police discover 7 bodies at the home of a sex offender on his scheduled court date

Teens Ivy Webster and Brittany Brewer found dead after Oklahoma manhunt : NPR

 

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by JerryBaumchen

[riggerrob 558]

Perhaps the USA needs ordinances limiting the hours that you can shoot outside. Write the ordinances similar to hunting regulations that limit shooting between sun-down and sun-rise. These limited hours reduce the number of random "sound" shots and accidental shootings. They also discourage the use of bright lights to stun deer.

Also consider that most municipalities have ordinances that forbid loud noises - outdoors - after "X" o'clock. Gun fire should be treated the same way.

Finally, given the current gun culture in the USA current attitudes are so deeply entrenched that they cannot be changed within the lifetime of the current generation. We are going to have to wait until the current generation of gun owners die off - from natural causes - before you can make fundemental changes.

[normiss 622]

12 minutes ago, riggerrob said:

Perhaps the USA needs ordinances limiting the hours that you can shoot outside. Write the ordinances similar to hunting regulations that limit shooting between sun-down and sun-rise. These limited hours reduce the number of random "sound" shots and accidental shootings. They also discourage the use of bright lights to stun deer.

Also consider that most municipalities have ordinances that forbid loud noises - outdoors - after "X" o'clock. Gun fire should be treated the same way.

Finally, given the current gun culture in the USA current attitudes are so deeply entrenched that they cannot be changed within the lifetime of the current generation. We are going to have to wait until the current generation of gun owners die off - from natural causes - before you can make fundemental changes.

Cleveland, Texas city ordinance:

• Sec. 82-67. - Discharge of firearms and air guns, shooting of other weapons prohibited; exceptions.

   

  SHARE LINK TO SECTIONPRINT SECTIONDOWNLOAD (DOCX) OF SECTIONSEMAIL SECTIONCOMPARE VERSIONS

  (a)

  It shall be unlawful for any person to discharge a firearm or air gun within the city limits.

  (b)

  It shall be unlawful for any person to shoot a crossbow, bow or such like device, or hurl or throw any missile by the use of a crossbow, bow or such like device within the city limits.

  (c)

  It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:

  (1)

  The person discharged a firearm, air gun, or crossbow in the lawful defense or protection of a person or property in accordance with state law;

  (2)

  The person was a licensed peace officer, licensed security guard, or a member of the United States or state armed forces at the time of the discharge and provided that any such discharge is made in the course and scope of his or her official duties;

  (3)

  The person was a duly appointed animal control officer in the course and scope of his or her official duties and was euthanizing a sick or injured animal or eradicating a predatory animal;

  (4)

  The person used blank cartridges for a theatrical production, an event sponsored by a military organization, a funeral with military honors, an athletic event, or other ceremonial or commemorative events, provided that the discharge is performed safely and directed away from persons, animals, or structures so as to prevent bodily injury or property damage;

  (5)

  The person discharged an air gun, bow (other than a crossbow) or other like device, or hurled or threw a missile by the use of a bow or other like device on his or her own property, provided such device is not fired into or onto another person's property without the other owner's consent;

  (6)

  The person was at a shooting range operated by the United States government, or the State of Texas, or political subdivision of the state, or which is privately operated as authorized or permitted by the city;

  (7)

  The person was participating in an amusement arcade or paintball amusement facility authorized or permitted by the city;

  (8)

  The person was using any mechanism designed to propel nails, bolts, screws, rivets, or other fasteners, so long as such mechanism was being used for its intended purpose; or

  (9)

  The person discharged a shotgun or air gun on his or her own property for the purpose of protecting livestock from predatory animals, but only in those cases where the property is at least one acre in size and the discharge is done in a manner not reasonably expected to cause a projectile to enter into or onto another person's property.

  ( Ord. No. 1167, § 1, 7-17-2018 )

[billeisele 122]

On 4/29/2023 at 6:05 PM, kallend said:

Texas gun-nut kills 5 neighbors for complaining about noise from his shooting practice with his AR-15

The "TX gun-nut" was an illegal alien that had been deported 4 times. Clearly he was not a law abiding citizen.

Wonder how he was repeatedly able to get back into the US and why was he not imprisoned?

[lippy 771]

19 minutes ago, billeisele said:

Wonder how he was repeatedly able to get back into the US and why was he not imprisoned?

Would you prefer he be deported, or imprisoned and live off the taxpayer's dime?  How do you recommend such cases be handled?  

[Phil1111 910]

8 hours ago, riggerrob said:

Perhaps the USA needs ordinances limiting the hours that you can shoot outside. Write the ordinances similar to hunting regulations that limit shooting between sun-down and sun-rise. These limited hours reduce the number of random "sound" shots and accidental shootings. They also discourage the use of bright lights to stun deer.

Also consider that most municipalities have ordinances that forbid loud noises - outdoors - after "X" o'clock. Gun fire should be treated the same way.

Finally, given the current gun culture in the USA current attitudes are so deeply entrenched that they cannot be changed within the lifetime of the current generation. We are going to have to wait until the current generation of gun owners die off - from natural causes - before you can make fundemental changes.

In TX if you own 10 acres you can step outside and let it rip.Unrestricted as long as projectiles don't exit your property. AFAIK no country can restrict your rights to shoot. .300 magnum let it fly! Where the latest shooting occurred it was an area of 1/4 acre lots. If a county doesn't restrict shooting you can still let it rip as long as a projectile doesn't exit your property.

But according to a local resident(of the shooting) that's widely ignored. Because according to him property owners will put tin cans on the property line fence and still shoot at them. Getting police to take action for such complaints is very difficult.

The last time there was an attempt to restrict shooting in some area of Texas of smaller lots.i.e. under 10 acres. There was a huge outcry and it went nowhere.

Since they just captured the shooter responsible for the latest outrage. Texas prisons will be his home at taxpayers expense for the next while.

Just one more cost for the second amendment.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Phil1111

[BIGUN 1,051]

9 hours ago, Slim King said:

The answer is simple. Every illegal alien caught lives in solitary confinement in the middle of the desert for 6 months. Then they are deported. If they return the confinement will be 2 years solitary confinement and bread and water.

So, you'd rather we treat POWs who've killed American soldiers better than illegal immigrants? What in the holy fuck is wrong with you. 

[JoeWeber 2,297]

11 hours ago, billeisele said:

The "TX gun-nut" was an illegal alien that had been deported 4 times. Clearly he was not a law abiding citizen.

Wonder how he was repeatedly able to get back into the US and why was he not imprisoned?

He didn’t get back into the US repeatedly. He got back into Texas.

[normiss 622]

11 hours ago, lippy said:

Would you prefer he be deported, or imprisoned and live off the taxpayer's dime?  How do you recommend such cases be handled?  

Why do we not ask this question to Congress????

It's THEIR flipping job!

They would rather continue to use this as a dividing spear of fear than actually work to resolve it.

It seems to be working as desired.

[riggerrob 558]

3 hours ago, normiss said:

Why do we not ask this question to Congress????

It's THEIR flipping job!

They would rather continue to use this as a dividing spear of fear than actually work to resolve it.

It seems to be working as desired.

One of the problems with sending illegal immigrants back to their countries of origin is that they are often soon released because their home country is too poor to house/imprison them.

Catch-and-release is the norm in many countries.