More sacrifices to the 2nd Amendment

[kallend 1,620]

11 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Theoretically locking guards make sense, in reality, however, we seem unable to convince people to not leave loaded pistols laying around in a house with kids. Except for law enforcement, the military, and liquor store night shift operators etc. I'm damned if I can see any use for a pistol, except as a collectors investment. If you're hunting with it you're simply increasing the degree of difficulty. That makes no sense. If you think you're going to wake up at 2AM after a normal cocktail hour, pull it from under your pillow, and do other than shoot your foot you're already not thinking clearly. 

I'd exempt front loading muskets from regulation, like the founders intended.

[billeisele 122]

18 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Bill E just wants to continually confuse the discussion with his red herrings; that have nothing to do with the discussion.  That is the killings from Columbine to Uvalde.

Jerry Baumchen

Jerry - I don't understand how your comment is accurate.

I've consistently said that to focus solely on AR type guns, when less than 10% of deaths are with that type gun, and expect a meaningful reduction in gun deaths is folly. I've never said that nothing should be done about the AR type gun. 

If your only goal is to reduce mass shootings of children then, yes, focusing solely on the AR would reduce children being shot with an AR. For me that just seems short sighted. 

IMO Gun legislation needs to include pistols.

[Phil1111 908]

38 minutes ago, billeisele said:

...IMO Gun legislation needs to include pistols.

Finally the logic and intelligent debate of SC has produced results.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

22 hours ago, billeisele said:

The defund the police actions and the increase in crime are two reasons folks have been buying guns. The Obama years were record breaking for gun sales.

 

22 hours ago, lippy said:

Yeah it was all Obama’s fault….had nothing to do with the most manipulatable among us being incessantly told that ‘they’re coming for your guns, better buy them while you can’

 

22 hours ago, billeisele said:

 

Both of these replies are just childish.

Lippy - you may believe Obama caused it and you are entitled to your opinion. I'm glad I didn't say that...

#1 - "Defund the police" is a bad way of phrasing "let's put the money we use to militarize the police towards things that actually address crime".
We see far too many cops prancing around with military equipment, assaulting innocent, unarmed citizens, and then failing to act when actual danger presents itself

If the fools are buying guns because they think the cops are going to 'go away', then they're idiots.

If it wasn't all the 'pro gun' types (NRA in particular) screaming 'the scary black man is coming for your GUNS!!!!!!!", then what was it?

Seriously, I saw all the NRA propaganda in my mailbox. It's one of the reasons that I'm no longer a member.
When Obama got elected in 08, all the guns went flying off the shelves. Ammunition too. Even components. Primers in particular were impossible to find for most of 09. 
Then, when it finally started to calm down, the Sandy Hook shooting happened. And it went bananas all over again.

And the NRA continued to raise the roof about Obama, Feinstein, Schumer, and Hilary (her in particular) wanting to 'take your guns away'. It was their mantra for the entire time.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

1 hour ago, billeisele said:

Jerry - I don't understand how your comment is accurate.

I've consistently said that to focus solely on AR type guns, when less than 10% of deaths are with that type gun, and expect a meaningful reduction in gun deaths is folly. I've never said that nothing should be done about the AR type gun. 

If your only goal is to reduce mass shootings of children then, yes, focusing solely on the AR would reduce children being shot with an AR. For me that just seems short sighted. 

IMO Gun legislation needs to include pistols.

Bill,

Like others here that's not something I've taken from your position. Please, tell us what you believe would be the meaningful gun legislation that you would unreservedly support.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

19 hours ago, wmw999 said:

What are your thoughts on mandatory trigger guards on pistols? They won't help much with planned action, but might help with suicides where someone takes a parent's gun, or make the suicide think just a little bit more.

The problem with pistols is that they're just so darn easy and clean to kill someone with. You don't have to get all messy, you don't have to get close enough to be punched. I'd be just fine with requiring a license for pistols or their carry, along with larger-capacity long guns (like the AR style), and keeping hunting guns with small capacity (e.g. your average shotgun or rifle) as they are now.

I would be all in favour of mandatory biometric locks on all firearms. The amount of identities that could enable the firearm should be restricted to 2 people max.

Sure there will be some instances where they won't work in time, nothing is 100% perfect. But overall it will reduce gun violence.

[billeisele 122]

On 8/8/2022 at 11:25 AM, JoeWeber said:

Bill,

Like others here that's not something I've taken from your position. Please, tell us what you believe would be the meaningful gun legislation that you would unreservedly support.

Joe - I've clearly stated many actions that IMO should be taken. You've continually inferred that I support unfettered proliferation of assault weapons. That's not correct. Some comments made on July 23 were:

The only point I've been trying to make is that there are many more firearms, other than the typical AR like rifle, that are a problem. To focus solely on assault weapons is short-sighted and will have, at best, a small impact on gun deaths.

I agree that it's reasonable to limit the typical semi auto hunting rifle to 5 rounds or less.

Raise the age on purchases of non-hunting firearms, tighten up the application process, hammer anyone caught making a straw purchase (maybe some law that says after buying X? firearms a year one has to prove they still have them in their possession, have paperwork documenting the transfer, or if lost or stolen a police report is required), mandatory severe jail time if caught with a stolen firearm, laws requiring owners to be more responsible with managing/storing the weapon, confiscation if mental health becomes an issue, red flag laws, significantly higher training requirements to obtain a concealed weapons permit and ongoing training to keep it, liability laws/exposure for dealers that make errors, strengthen the requirements to obtain and retain an FFL license by requiring a minimum number of transactions per year, special application process for any long gun that can hold more than xx rounds in a magazine, shotguns that hold more than 6 rounds should be considered assault weapons, limit mag capacity with pistols to 10-12 rounds, mandatory prison sentence of 10 years for any crime committed with a gun, etc. etc.

[wmw999 2,116]

I like that there’s a mix of proactive (prevention) and reactive (wait for someone to offend, then punish) measures in there. There has to be, because the current atmosphere of mostly reactive is clearly not working well. Yes, it gives Fox and OAN fodder to point at cities and minorities as the “real” problem, but that shouldn’t be the point of legislation  

Wendy P. 

[JoeWeber 2,294]

4 hours ago, billeisele said:

Joe - I've clearly stated many actions that IMO should be taken. You've continually inferred that I support unfettered proliferation of assault weapons. That's not correct. Some comments made on July 23 were:

The only point I've been trying to make is that there are many more firearms, other than the typical AR like rifle, that are a problem. To focus solely on assault weapons is short-sighted and will have, at best, a small impact on gun deaths.

I agree that it's reasonable to limit the typical semi auto hunting rifle to 5 rounds or less.

Raise the age on purchases of non-hunting firearms, tighten up the application process, hammer anyone caught making a straw purchase (maybe some law that says after buying X? firearms a year one has to prove they still have them in their possession, have paperwork documenting the transfer, or if lost or stolen a police report is required), mandatory severe jail time if caught with a stolen firearm, laws requiring owners to be more responsible with managing/storing the weapon, confiscation if mental health becomes an issue, red flag laws, significantly higher training requirements to obtain a concealed weapons permit and ongoing training to keep it, liability laws/exposure for dealers that make errors, strengthen the requirements to obtain and retain an FFL license by requiring a minimum number of transactions per year, special application process for any long gun that can hold more than xx rounds in a magazine, shotguns that hold more than 6 rounds should be considered assault weapons, limit mag capacity with pistols to 10-12 rounds, mandatory prison sentence of 10 years for any crime committed with a gun, etc. etc.

Bill, indeed I have but maybe that's through a lack of clear understanding on my part. Let's look at your ideas and maybe you can add some clarity for me.

Raise the age on purchases of non-hunting firearms, 

Please give the proposed age. Please describe the non-hunting firearm.

tighten up the application process, 

How so? Two forms of ID? FBI background check? Firearms training certification?

hammer anyone caught making a straw purchase 

How so? Fines? Who does the hammering and what is the process?

(maybe some law that says after buying X? firearms a year one has to prove they still have them in their possession, 

What value is X? 10? 100? How frequent are the checks? How is that done? Are you suggesting that gun registration is necessary?

have paperwork documenting the transfer, or if lost or stolen a police report is required), 

Again, are you tacitly arguing that some form of gun registration is necessary?

mandatory severe jail time if caught with a stolen firearm, 

Again, are you supporting registration? After all, we're talking about someone's freedom here.

laws requiring owners to be more responsible with managing/storing the weapon, 

Fine. Please describe the law. For sure you wouldn't hold me and my buddies in our Elk camp tent to the same standard of care as a parent with kids at home? What scale of detail are you thinking? 

confiscation if mental health becomes an issue, red flag laws, 

Great. Where would you invest that authority?

significantly higher training requirements to obtain a concealed weapons permit and ongoing training to keep it, 

Please detail "significantly higher".

liability laws/exposure for dealers that make errors, 

Like errors and omissions insurance? License suspension? Specifically what are the "errors" and who will decide?

strengthen the requirements to obtain and retain an FFL license by requiring a minimum number of transactions per year

requiring all current FFL holders to sell lots more dangerous guns really a good solution? Just which guns are they selling that makes selling many more a societal benefit?

special application process for any long gun that can hold more than xx rounds in a magazine, 

What is xx? 10? 30? How many of each should a user own?

shotguns that hold more than 6 rounds should be considered assault weapons, 

This one is a surprise. Not for the number 6 but because you apparently do have a definition of an assault weapon in mind. Please explain.

limit mag capacity with pistols to 10-12 rounds, 

Seems a reasonable number, I guess.

mandatory prison sentence of 10 years for any crime committed with a gun, etc. etc.

Why 10 years? And would you distinguish between the types of guns?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[riggerrob 558]

On 8/7/2022 at 1:00 PM, wmw999 said:

What are your thoughts on mandatory trigger guards on pistols? ...

Wendy P.

Dear Wendy,

I suspect that you meant "trigger locks."

Trigger locks are little gadgets - sort of specialized pad - locks that hide the trigger. Trigger locks are sold by all gun stores. Fumbling for the key takes an extra minute or two.

Trigger locks also work well on long guns. Alternately, a bicycle chain or Kryptonite lock blocks the breach, preventing you from closing the bolt ... ergo preventing you from firing that long gun.

Trigger locks should be standard on any gun stored at home. Something that important might even require two locks.

[riggerrob 558]

13 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

" ... Raise the age on purchases of non-hunting firearms, 

Please give the proposed age. Please describe the non-hunting firearm.

tighten up the application process, ... "

 

Perhaps raise the minimum age to be the same as the drinking age: 21.

Non-hunting firearm ... for example, anything smaller than.308 (aka. 7.62 X 51 mm NATO) is considered the minimum for deer hunting in Canada.

5.56 NATO is only considered legitimate for hunting coyotes.

A few small caliber pistols (e.g. .25 center-fire) were banned as they were only used in "Saturday Night Specials." Then some one reminded the RCMP that Olympic and a few international matches only used .25" pistols, so those were granted limited, restricted ownership, but only if the owner was registered as a member of a competitive pistol shooting club (e.g. Olympic level competition).

All pistols are prohibited for hunting in Canada. If a game-warden catches you carrying a pistol - in the forest - during deer-hunting season, he will seize that pistol plus a bunch of your other stuff (truck or boat), plus other legal miseries. 

[riggerrob 558]

13 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

" ... mandatory severe jail time if caught with a stolen firearm, 

Again, are you supporting registration? After all, we're talking about someone's freedom here. ... "

If the lawful owner reported to police that his gun was stolen ...

13 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Commit the crime = do the time.

Possession of stolen goods is a crime in most jurisdictions. Possession of a stolen weapon is worse. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2022 by riggerrob
add a sentence

[riggerrob 558]

Dear SkyDekker,

Did you consider that when the original owner of a biometrically-locked gun dies ... the gun is rendered inert?

Cops would love that.

[riggerrob 558]

13 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

" ... laws requiring owners to be more responsible with managing/storing the weapon, 

Fine. Please describe the law. For sure you wouldn't hold me and my buddies in our Elk camp tent to the same standard of care as a parent with kids at home? What scale of detail are you thinking? ... "

 

 

When stored at home, a minimum of a trigger lock and preferably locked in a closed cabinet. Guns are best stored out of sight (e.g. no glass doors on gun cabinets. Ideally, ammo is stored in a separate locked cabinet.

When transporting from home to a gun range, trigger locks. Pistols should also be carried in locked, hard-shell cases.

[riggerrob 558]

13 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

" ... special application process for any long gun that can hold more than xx rounds in a magazine, 

What is xx? 10? 30? How many of each should a user own?

shotguns that hold more than 6 rounds should be considered assault weapons, 

This one is a surprise. Not for the number 6 but because you apparently do have a definition of an assault weapon in mind. Please explain.

limit mag capacity with pistols to 10-12 rounds, 

Seems a reasonable number, I guess. ... "

 

 

Canadian law prohibits any long gun magazine more than 5 rounds. Pistols are restricted to 10 rounds.

Initially, shotgun magazines were not limited, but back then shotguns were only available with tube magazines.

[riggerrob 558]

13 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

" ... confiscation if mental health becomes an issue, red flag laws, 

Great. Where would you invest that authority? ... "

 

A medical doctor or judge can decide if you are risk to yourself or the public.

[riggerrob 558]

13 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

" ... liability laws/exposure for dealers that make errors, 

Like errors and omissions insurance? License suspension? Specifically what are the "errors" and who will decide?

strengthen the requirements to obtain and retain an FFL license by requiring a minimum number of transactions per year

requiring all current FFL holders to sell lots more dangerous guns really a good solution? Just which guns are they selling that makes selling many more a societal benefit? ... "

 

I suspect that the original poster was trying to limit the numbers of amateur or part-time or low-volume of FFL holders.

If you limit the numbers of FFL holders, you make it easier for police to monitor them.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

1 minute ago, riggerrob said:

I suspect that the original poster was trying to limit the numbers of amateur or part-time or low-volume of FFL holders.

Well, let's hope that the original poster doesn't consider your dissection sufficient and explains just what he meant by each item.

[riggerrob 558]

14 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

" ... significantly higher training requirements to obtain a concealed weapons permit and ongoing training to keep it, 

Please detail "significantly higher".... "

 

 

 

The 2 days of classroom instruction required to earn a Canadian PAL is not nearly enough training to carry a concealed weapon in public.

You need additional training in situational awareness, risk assessment, risk avoidance, driving out of the danger zone, escalation of force, identifying targets in dimly-lit areas, shooting while breathing hard, shooting around obstacles, legal consequences, perhaps some medical training ... the list goes on.

Edited August 13, 2022 by riggerrob
add a phrase

[billeisele 122]

On 8/13/2022 at 1:56 AM, riggerrob said:

The 2 days of classroom instruction required to earn a Canadian PAL is not nearly enough training to carry a concealed weapon in public.

You need additional training in situational awareness, risk assessment, risk avoidance, driving out of the danger zone, escalation of force, identifying targets in dimly-lit areas, shooting while breathing hard, shooting around obstacles, legal consequences, perhaps some medical training ... the list goes on.

Exactly. In many US states the requirement is only a few hours of training. The shooting qualification is way too easy. I've seen people with zero gun experience walk in, take the class, and use a .22 to qualify. That gives them the legal right to carry whatever caliber they want. easy. One must hit a full size silhouette target at 3, 5, 7 and 10 yards shooting 10 rounds at each distance, and at 12 and 15 yards shooting 5 rounds each. A passing score is 35 out of 50.
Once they have their permit there is no more testing requirements as long as they submit the paperwork to renew it every 5 years. There are 20 States with reciprocity with SC.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Georgia recently passed a "constitutional carry" law that abolished any requirement for a concealed carry permit.  No permit = no background check, no training or proficiency requirements, no limitations of any sort.  It also greatly expanded the sort of places you can carry, and restricted the right of property owners to keep guns out of their establishments.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

4 hours ago, billeisele said:

Exactly. In many US states the requirement is only a few hours of training. The shooting qualification is way too easy. I've seen people with zero gun experience walk in, take the class, and use a .22 to qualify. That gives them the legal right to carry whatever caliber they want. easy. One must hit a full size silhouette target at 3, 5, 7 and 10 yards shooting 10 rounds at each distance, and at 12 and 15 yards shooting 5 rounds each. A passing score is 35 out of 50.
Once they have their permit there is no more testing requirements as long as they submit the paperwork to renew it every 5 years. There are 20 States with reciprocity with SC.

A full size silhouette? Of a human being? Where do the rounds need to hit to count?

[headoverheels 291]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

A full size silhouette? Of a human being? Where do the rounds need to hit to count?

Is that the full size silhouette of a typical American of the constitution era, or the silhouette of today's typical obese American?

[JoeWeber 2,294]

4 minutes ago, headoverheels said:

Is that the full size silhouette of a typical American of the constitution era, or the silhouette of today's typical obese American?

You're a goddamn genius, Gump! Of course it must be from the time of the constitution. You can bet your corn cob pipe that the Supreme Court would rule that way. "Sorry there, Billy Bob, but that one went straight through that fellers fat apron and they didn't have them in 1776. No Machine Gun license for you!"

[billeisele 122]

20 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

A full size silhouette? Of a human being? Where do the rounds need to hit to count?

Anywhere in the rings of a standard B-27 target. The rings fit on a thin or fat person. IMO the requirements are much to easy.

There's no requirement for Billy Bob to have a CWP to own a "machine gun" more appropriately called an automatic weapon. Therefore, he doesn't have to be tested on the laws or be proven capable of properly firing the gun. But he will have to wait 8 - 10 months for the BATFE to investigate his background and complete the paperwork. The investigation is good.