More sacrifices to the 2nd Amendment

[billvon 2,381]

2 hours ago, gowlerk said:

I’m not sure why we’re focussing on the Buffalo shooting as a gun issue. It’s actually a racism issue

Right wing extremists, making America great again, one shooting at at time.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi folks,

Sometimes a good guy with a gun is not necessary:  parishioners hog-tied him with electrical cords.

Parishioners stop gunman in deadly California church attack : NPR

Jerry Baumchen

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

3 hours ago, gowlerk said:

This particular young man was inspired by both the New Zealand and the Norwegian events.

I don't doubt that.

Both of those were 'race based'.

Doesn't change the fact that he used a gun.
Something readily available here in the US, and not so much in most of the rest of the world.
These sorts of shootings occur on a fairly regular basis here in the US. 

Not so much elsewhere (they aren't a 'never' thing, but much less common).

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi folks,

This, fortunately was not a sacrifice but it did come close:  Road rage on U.S. 26

Road rage on U.S. 26: Family returning from Oregon coast shot at by convicted armed robber, court records say - oregonlive.com

We simply must do more to keeps guns out of the hands of some people.

Jerry Baumchen

[metalslug 31]

On 5/17/2022 at 3:19 AM, billvon said:

Right wing extremists, making America great again, one shooting at at time.

Right wing, eh?  The 'manifesto' of the Buffalo shooter is left of center. I could list citations and quotes but I'm sure you'll find the relevant info. Which shooting was before that one? Could it have been Frank James?  Was his politics left or right ? ...

[Phil1111 908]

On 5/16/2022 at 11:31 AM, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi folks,

Sometimes a good guy with a gun is not necessary:  parishioners hog-tied him with electrical cords.

Parishioners stop gunman in deadly California church attack : NPR

Jerry Baumchen

WTF? So everyone doesn't need a gun?

[Phil1111 908]

14 minutes ago, metalslug said:

Right wing, eh?  The 'manifesto' of the Buffalo shooter is left of center. I could list citations and quotes but I'm sure you'll find the relevant info. Which shooting was before that one? Could it have been Frank James?  Was his politics left or right ? ...

You need to get your head out of the gun forums and use common sense.

"A 180-page manifesto, allegedly released by the accused along with a video of the attack, is rife with pseudo-scientific racism, antisemitic conspiracy theories and a call for others to mimic his violence. The screed is mostly plagiarized from other extremists and from the far-right 4chan.

The 18-year-old white man charged with carrying out the massacre – before turning himself over to police at the scene – wrote that “extreme boredom” drove him to 4chan in March 2020."

Or provide the quotes from the manifesto where racism and antisemitic ideology is left of center.You and Brent have allot in common.

[wmw999 2,116]

31 minutes ago, metalslug said:

Right wing, eh?  The 'manifesto' of the Buffalo shooter is left of center. I could list citations and quotes but I'm sure you'll find the relevant info. Which shooting was before that one? Could it have been Frank James?  Was his politics left or right ? ...

That’s a ludicrous assertion, requiring mental gymnastics. It’s OK to say that he in no way represents right-wing theory, that he’s spouting memes right and left. But it’s not OK to assign him somewhere that very clearly doesn’t mesh. It’d be like saying that the BLM demonstrators who rioted (as opposed to the huge majority that simply demonstrated) are actually right wing.

What that says more than anything is that some people think “team” association is more important than the individual. Which is bullshit.

Wendy P. 

[metalslug 31]

6 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Or provide the quotes from the manifesto where racism and antisemitic ideology is left of center.You and Brent have allot in common.

Well that's the ignorance that some lefties have, isn't it ?  ..believing that both racism and anti-semitism are exclusively right wing.  Even the other lefties here can educate you on that misconception.

Back to Gendron; You asked for quotes from his manifest; 

 “Not a thing has been conserved other than corporate profits and the ever increasing wealth of the 1% that exploit the people for their own benefit. Conservatism is dead. Thank god.
.....  I fall in the middle of the mild, moderate authoritarian left category, and I would prefer to be called a populist...  Call me an ethno-nationalist eco-fascist national socialist if you want, I wouldn't disagree with you."

Sounds right-wing to you?

[winsor 185]

24 minutes ago, metalslug said:

Well that's the ignorance that some lefties have, isn't it ?  ..believing that both racism and anti-semitism are exclusively right wing.  Even the other lefties here can educate you on that misconception.

Back to Gendron; You asked for quotes from his manifest; 

 “Not a thing has been conserved other than corporate profits and the ever increasing wealth of the 1% that exploit the people for their own benefit. Conservatism is dead. Thank god.
.....  I fall in the middle of the mild, moderate authoritarian left category, and I would prefer to be called a populist...  Call me an ethno-nationalist eco-fascist national socialist if you want, I wouldn't disagree with you."

Sounds right-wing to you?

Wrong thread, but it sounds like a case for postnatal abortion.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

1 hour ago, metalslug said:

ethno-nationalist eco-fascist national socialist

That would put him pretty firmly on the right side of the political spectrum. Unless you are one of those people who believe that national socialism is left wing cause it has the word socialism. Probably also believe the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a thriving democracy.

[billvon 2,381]

2 hours ago, metalslug said:

Right wing, eh?  The 'manifesto' of the Buffalo shooter is left of center.

Uh - no, he's not.  He described himself as a white supremacist.  He believes in replacement theory, a far-right white supremacist theory that claims that white "traitors" are working to replace white Christian society with minorites and Muslims.  He's about as far right as you can get.

The whole "make America great again" meme - the literal slogan of Trump supporters - expresses a desire to roll culture back to an earlier time, where white Christian males were on top as a given.  Replacement theory is a big part of that, since at its core is the fertile fear that immigrants will replace "real" Americans.  Tucker Carlson: "In order to win and maintain power, Democrats plan to change the population of the country."  Elise Stefanik claims that democrats want to "grant amnesty to 11 MILLION illegal immigrants will overthrow our current electorate and create a permanent liberal majority in Washington.”  Steven Miller pushes the book "The Camp of the Saints" on the people he knows in politics; that is a fictional book about replacement theory.

Matt Gaetz: "There is an attempted cultural genocide going on in America right now and it calls for patriots to stand up and say that America is a great country worthy of our pride and our defense. The left wants us to be ashamed of America so that they can replace America."  And "Tucker Carlson is CORRECT about Replacement Theory."

Scott Perry: "we’re replacing national-born Americans — native-born Americans to permanently transform the landscape of this very nation."

Wendy Rogers: "We are being replaced and invaded."

So no, the Buffalo shooter was not left of center.  He is an adherent to one of the core values of MAGA, and was doing what he could to prevent being "replaced" by blacks.

Quote

Which shooting was before that one?

Good question.  Let's go through the recent shootings of that magnitude.

2021 Boulder: Ahmad Al Aliwi Al-Issa killed 10 people at a supermarket in Colorado.  Investigators concluded that there was "no indication on his Facebook account that suggested radical views of any kind, whether it be Islamist, anti-Trump, or anything else."  He was judged insane and not competent to stand trial.

2019 El Paso.  Patrick Wood Crusius shot and killed 23 people.  He posted a right wing manifesto on 8chan before he began the shooting, and expressed support both for replacement theory and for other mass murderers who had targeted minorities.

2019 Virginia Beach.  DeWayne Antonio Craddock shot and killed 12 people.  He was a veteran and disgruntled employee.  He had no stated reason for the shooting, and during the shooting did not target any specific group of people.

2018 Stoneman Douglas High School.  Nikolas Jacob Cruz shot and killed 17 kids at a high school.  He was a troubled youth with discipline problems and had purchased a large number of weapons.  His social media accounts contained anti-black and anti-Muslim slurs.  In comments on other Youtube videos he posted "I wanna die Fighting killing shit ton of people."  He made several threats against Antifa as well. 

So out of those five shootings we have two far right shooters with manifestos, one troubled kid who wanted to kill blacks, Muslims and Antifa, one disgruntled employee with no visible political agenda, and one crazy guy with no visible politiical agenda.

TL;DR: MOST of those shooters were right wingers.

[billvon 2,381]

2 hours ago, metalslug said:

Well that's the ignorance that some lefties have, isn't it ?  ..believing that both racism and anti-semitism are exclusively right wing. 

Of course they are not, and of course he didn't claim that they were.  However, they are not a cornerstone of the democratic party, whereas replacement theory is definitely a plank of the republican party.

 

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

58 minutes ago, billvon said:

Uh - no, he's not.  He described himself as a white supremacist.  He believes in replacement theory, a far-right white supremacist theory that claims that white "traitors" are working to replace white Christian society with minorites and Muslims.  He's about as far right as you can get.

The whole "make America great again" meme - the literal slogan of Trump supporters - expresses a desire to roll culture back to an earlier time, where white Christian males were on top as a given.  Replacement theory is a big part of that, since at its core is the fertile fear that immigrants will replace "real" Americans.  Tucker Carlson: "In order to win and maintain power, Democrats plan to change the population of the country."  Elise Stefanik claims that democrats want to "grant amnesty to 11 MILLION illegal immigrants will overthrow our current electorate and create a permanent liberal majority in Washington.”  Steven Miller pushes the book "The Camp of the Saints" on the people he knows in politics; that is a fictional book about replacement theory.

Matt Gaetz: "There is an attempted cultural genocide going on in America right now and it calls for patriots to stand up and say that America is a great country worthy of our pride and our defense. The left wants us to be ashamed of America so that they can replace America."  And "Tucker Carlson is CORRECT about Replacement Theory."

Scott Perry: "we’re replacing national-born Americans — native-born Americans to permanently transform the landscape of this very nation."

Wendy Rogers: "We are being replaced and invaded."

So no, the Buffalo shooter was not left of center.  He is an adherent to one of the core values of MAGA, and was doing what he could to prevent being "replaced" by blacks.

Good question.  Let's go through the recent shootings of that magnitude.

2021 Boulder: Ahmad Al Aliwi Al-Issa killed 10 people at a supermarket in Colorado.  Investigators concluded that there was "no indication on his Facebook account that suggested radical views of any kind, whether it be Islamist, anti-Trump, or anything else."  He was judged insane and not competent to stand trial.

2019 El Paso.  Patrick Wood Crusius shot and killed 23 people.  He posted a right wing manifesto on 8chan before he began the shooting, and expressed support both for replacement theory and for other mass murderers who had targeted minorities.

2019 Virginia Beach.  DeWayne Antonio Craddock shot and killed 12 people.  He was a veteran and disgruntled employee.  He had no stated reason for the shooting, and during the shooting did not target any specific group of people.

2018 Stoneman Douglas High School.  Nikolas Jacob Cruz shot and killed 17 kids at a high school.  He was a troubled youth with discipline problems and had purchased a large number of weapons.  His social media accounts contained anti-black and anti-Muslim slurs.  In comments on other Youtube videos he posted "I wanna die Fighting killing shit ton of people."  He made several threats against Antifa as well. 

So out of those five shootings we have two far right shooters with manifestos, one troubled kid who wanted to kill blacks, Muslims and Antifa, one disgruntled employee with no visible political agenda, and one crazy guy with no visible politiical agenda.

TL;DR: MOST of those shooters were right wingers.

Hi Bill,

Re:  He's about as far right as you can get.

IMO if someone cannot accept that, in the words of MJOSparky, 'They haven't seen the ball since kickoff.'

Jerry Baumchen

[Phil1111 908]

42 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Bill,

Re:  He's about as far right as you can get.

IMO if someone cannot accept that, in the words of MJOSparky, 'They haven't seen the ball since kickoff.'

Jerry Baumchen

The shooter described himself as a " I fall in the middle of the mild, moderate authoritarian left category, and I would prefer to be called a populist...  Call me an ethno-nationalist eco-fascist national socialist if you want, I wouldn't disagree with you."

Its amusing that metalslug can look past the shooters actions and pick out the phrases that appeal to his personal identity. His view of politics. No the shooter didn't travel long distances to kill Blacks because he's a racist. Its all because he is a leftist, a democrat even. Bill's excellent response involved far to much effort for me.

A statement in which the shooter identifies himself as a Nazi ("national socialist") then goes out to kill Blacks is framed as "leftist". .Because he self labeled himself as "left". Such is the self identity of the populist right in America, for some. Just pick the phrases and identity that fits your feelings  Let your actions stand separate.

[BillyVance 34]

On 5/16/2022 at 10:13 AM, gowlerk said:

I’m not sure why we’re focussing on the Buffalo shooting as a gun issue. It’s actually a racism issue

The dude also had a mental illness dating back to the previous year. Police was involved because he made threats. Either they didn't take it seriously enough or he fell through the cracks. Like the Parkland school shooter. The warning signs were there. 

[metalslug 31]

16 hours ago, billvon said:

He believes in replacement theory, a far-right white supremacist theory that claims that white "traitors" are working to replace white Christian society with minorites and Muslims.  

?? Sympathetic to Christians?  You didn't find it conspicuous in the quote that I provided (similar to every other mention in his manifesto) that 'god' is always written lower-case?  A hallmark of the faithful? 

16 hours ago, billvon said:

 Tucker Carlson: "In order to win and maintain power, Democrats plan to change the population of the country."  

Tucker Carlson is a bit of an ass for various reasons, I concede that much, although it's not totally unthinkable to criticize government facilitation of massive illegal immigration of people (of any ethnicity) who are more likely to vote D in future elections as gratitude. Fox News is indeed criticised in Gendron's manifesto as complicit in this imagined conspiracy. What the left like to do here however is conflate that issue with the truly racist, but notably different, French Nationalist Grand Remplacement theory because it makes for a good smear deflection. 

I grant you this much however; large parts of his manifesto are a word-salad rant of a disturbed mind and if he is found to be mentally ill then his claims of any political affiliation, right or left, will be less relevant.

Edited May 20, 2022 by metalslug

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

3 hours ago, BillyVance said:

The dude also had a mental illness dating back to the previous year. Police was involved because he made threats. Either they didn't take it seriously enough or he fell through the cracks. Like the Parkland school shooter. The warning signs were there. 

What could they have done?

They can't just 'take his guns away'.
They can't just commit him.

 

It's not that they 'didn't take it seriously enough'.

It's that our current system has no way to stop someone like this.

[Phil1111 908]

4 hours ago, metalslug said:

....to criticize government facilitation of massive illegal immigration of people (of any ethnicity) who are more likely to vote D in future elections ...

[billvon 2,381]

6 hours ago, metalslug said:

?? Sympathetic to Christians?  You didn't find it conspicuous in the quote that I provided (similar to every other mention in his manifesto) that 'god' is always written lower-case?  A hallmark of the faithful? 

You are arguing with the definition of replacement theory?  Go right ahead; I won't stop you.  However, trying to wordsmith it until it's meaningless won't change the fact that it does, in fact, exist - and that the killer was very much on board with it.

Quote

I concede that much, although it's not totally unthinkable to criticize government facilitation of massive illegal immigration of people (of any ethnicity) who are more likely to vote D in future elections as gratitude. 

And all you have to do is add to that " . .  and they want to destroy our way of life" and you have replacement theory in a nutshell.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

14 minutes ago, billvon said:

And all you have to do is add to that " . .  and they want to destroy our way of life" and you have replacement theory in a nutshell.

Reeks of somebody trying to justify to themselves how their version of replacement theory isn't as bad as the "real" replacement theory.

[gowlerk 1,903]

5 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Reeks of somebody trying to justify to themselves how their version of replacement theory isn't as bad as the "real" replacement theory.

This whole thing revolves around the fact that the nation is indeed undergoing demographic changes.The problem comes when people start seeing that as a problem. It isn’t a problem at all.

[billvon 2,381]

6 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

This whole thing revolves around the fact that the nation is indeed undergoing demographic changes.The problem comes when people start seeing that as a problem. It isn’t a problem at all.

Oh, it's a problem to a lot of people.  I mean, back in 1750, none other than Benjamin Franklin wrote a screed about how swarthy German immigrants were going to "Germanify" the American colonies, and should be kept out lest everyone in the (future) US end up speaking German.

Back then, Franklin could not see that the largely British US colonies would some day have a small minority of Brits, and that the Germans (and French, and Irish etc) would be the people who made up America.  So he at least has an excuse.

This comes up again and again throughout history.  Fear of the "other" is one of the most fertile fear-based tools that politicians have.  First they are demonized (i.e. blacks are lazy and immoral, Mexicans are rapists, Muslims are terrorists, Chinese want to take over the US) then voters are told that the evil immigrants will be coming for them next.  This is a central premise in most republican speeches these days; you can't hear a conservative talk for more than five minutes without hearing about all the illegal aliens flooding across the border and about how that will destroy America.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Don't forget how loudly the Alt-Right is screaming about the 'border crisis', pretending that 'millions of illegals are streaming across the border and Biden is just letting them in.'

Bare faced lie, but they like it so it 'must be true'.

[gowlerk 1,903]

38 minutes ago, billvon said:

you can't hear a conservative talk for more than five minutes without hearing about all the illegal aliens flooding across the border and about how that will destroy America.

The last group that had a legitimate complaint about being invaded by aliens was the native population. No other group has ever lost anything to immigration in North America.