More sacrifices to the 2nd Amendment

[billvon 2,380]

37 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

But SN# on parts isn't practical or realistic.

 

Why not?

[JoeWeber 2,294]

12 minutes ago, billvon said:

Why not?

It would be inconvenient and add to the cost, that's why. Not to mention that some lower income folks wouldn't be able to afford more than a few guns. 

Edited March 17, 2022 by JoeWeber

[SkyDekker 1,121]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

Why not?

Because you would have to start defining what a gun part is, or which parts are accessories and do not need SN and which are integral to the firearm and do need a SN. That is a lot of administration for likely not much gain.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

3 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

In the Covid thread I posited "You have fully nailed the reality of Billeisele. He believes what he believes because it where he is at socially".

You didn't much care for that analysis leading me to apologize for the conjecture. But then here again, in my opinion, you validate the conjecture. A child kills a parent with a loaded gun in a car and you find causation in, to wit "Moral upbringing, culture and the "societal eye." Something seems to be missing in America." Well, I couldn't agree more.  

 

Notably,  there seems to be strong correlation between gun deaths in America and states with lax gun laws and a high percentage of gun ownership. 

https://vpc.org/state-firearm-death-rates-ranked-by-rate-2020/ https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/gun-deaths-by-state

 

So whether it be that folks naturally gravitate to societal clusters with like beliefs, naturally adopt local beliefs, or were taught to believe what they believe on momma's knee social environs do seem to matter. Obviously there is nothing cut and dried about it but gun deaths do seem to be strongly associated with strong gun culture states that have also have lax gun laws and high gun ownership. If you believe that gun violence in the barrio's and ghetto's is a function of those societies then you're already half way home.

 

What to do? Stop believing that you need to have a loaded gun ready for self defense at all times would be a good start. Oppose all open carry laws. Oppose all concealed carry laws that aren't limited to real need and serious training and have consequences for misuse. Quit pretending that military styled weapons are good hunting and self defense guns. Also, stop sayin AR-15 platform as if it's a seed from which pretty plants grow. Teach the truth about gun violence in schools early on. Stop believing tropes like our gun problems are all imported from Mexico. Quit pretending without evidence that there is nothing that can be done now because too many guns are already out there. And hate it with all of your heart when you hear about things like kid sized assault weapons and bullet proof back packs for school books. In other words don't just hold our hands in the air and give up. 

 

 

Hi Joe,

Possibly your best post to date.

And, I agree 100%.

Jerry Baumchen

[billvon 2,380]

40 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Because you would have to start defining what a gun part is, or which parts are accessories and do not need SN and which are integral to the firearm and do need a SN. That is a lot of administration for likely not much gain.

Doesn't seem that hard to me.  "All components except fasteners shall have a readable serial and identification number."  Done.

[BIGUN 1,049]

12 minutes ago, billvon said:

Doesn't seem that hard to me.  "All components except fasteners shall have a readable serial and identification number."  Done.

Been out of town for a few days. To your point - it is being done. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2001/08/03/01-19418/identification-markings-placed-on-firearms-98r-341p

As to the child shooting the parent - Again, biometric mountable cases start at $129.00. If you can afford a gun; you can afford a lock box.

The proper storage of a weapon was discussed in the proposal earlier in this thread. If you guys don't write your congress critters; it's going to continue. I believe three more states went constitutional carry in the past week. One is just waiting on the Governor's signature.

 

[Phil1111 908]

13 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Been out of town for a few days. To your point - it is being done. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2001/08/03/01-19418/identification-markings-placed-on-firearms-98r-341p

As to the child shooting the parent - Again, biometric mountable cases start at $129.00. If you can afford a gun; you can afford a lock box.

The proper storage of a weapon was discussed in the proposal earlier in this thread. If you guys don't write your congress critters; it's going to continue. I believe three more states went constitutional carry in the past week. One is just waiting on the Governor's signature.

 

I agree with you re gun issues. Personally I have no problems with ownership of AR-15's and similar weapons. Or even high capacity magazines. Be it yourself or Brent I'm fairly certain that they will be used and stored responsibly.

I say this if background checks like that required to buy NFA items were imposed. The idea that a 18 year old can waltz into a gun store and after a simple background check. Get the AR, 60 round mags, ammo and head off to high school. Is irresponsible on the part of lawmakers..

[BIGUN 1,049]

1 minute ago, Phil1111 said:

I say this if background checks like that required to buy NFA items were imposed.

That was part of the proposal and I reiterated it again and my friends on the other side of the aisle declared that it was still short of removing the 2nd Amendment. 

[SkyDekker 1,121]

57 minutes ago, billvon said:

Doesn't seem that hard to me.  "All components except fasteners shall have a readable serial and identification number."  Done.

Excellent. let me know how you would put a readable serial and identification number on this:

And when it is not, how do you identify this one is really for a firearm? And what problem are you solving by mandating a SN on this?

Do all the SN have to match? Who maintains the records when components are changed?

Edited March 17, 2022 by SkyDekker

[billeisele 122]

3 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

In the Covid thread I posited "You have fully nailed the reality of Billeisele. He believes what he believes because it where he is at socially".

You didn't much care for that analysis leading me to apologize for the conjecture. But then here again, in my opinion, you validate the conjecture. A child kills a parent with a loaded gun in a car and you find causation in, to wit "Moral upbringing, culture and the "societal eye." Something seems to be missing in America." Well, I couldn't agree more.  

 

Notably,  there seems to be strong correlation between gun deaths in America and states with lax gun laws and a high percentage of gun ownership. 

https://vpc.org/state-firearm-death-rates-ranked-by-rate-2020/ https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/gun-deaths-by-state

 

So whether it be that folks naturally gravitate to societal clusters with like beliefs, naturally adopt local beliefs, or were taught to believe what they believe on momma's knee social environs do seem to matter. Obviously there is nothing cut and dried about it but gun deaths do seem to be strongly associated with strong gun culture states that have also have lax gun laws and high gun ownership. If you believe that gun violence in the barrio's and ghetto's is a function of those societies then you're already half way home.

 

What to do? Stop believing that you need to have a loaded gun ready for self defense at all times would be a good start. Oppose all open carry laws. Oppose all concealed carry laws that aren't limited to real need and serious training and have consequences for misuse. Quit pretending that military styled weapons are good hunting and self defense guns. Also, stop sayin AR-15 platform as if it's a seed from which pretty plants grow. Teach the truth about gun violence in schools early on. Stop believing tropes like our gun problems are all imported from Mexico. Quit pretending without evidence that there is nothing that can be done now because too many guns are already out there. And hate it with all of your heart when you hear about things like kid sized assault weapons and bullet proof back packs for school books. In other words don't just hold our hands in the air and give up. 

 

 

Dang Joe do you always have to rant, make personal attacks and presume things about people that just aren't true? Why not just discuss the topic? Just trying to have a discussion.

Looking at the 2019 CDC chart data there are many states with a high # of gun deaths that also have stricter laws. Using IL and CA as examples with 1,367 and 2,945 deaths, respectively. Just in those two states that's 4,312 (42%) of the nationwide homicides from a firearm. The conclusion that the problem exists primarily in states with lax laws isn't correct. Yes, there are plenty of deaths in lax law states, TX had 3,683, but they are not the only places. Bottom line is there are too many gun deaths, period. 

Within those that study this stuff, one topic that comes up is: What happens in areas where the criminals know that there is a high risk of injury vs. an area where there is a low risk of injury. And no, I don't have the citation. Crime is higher in low risk areas, areas where there is low - to no risk of the victim fighting back. That leads to these serious questions. If carry laws are abolished does criminal activity increase? Does the suspected presence of an armed citizenry reduce crime?  We know that the thugs will continue to carry illegally.

You mentioned serious training and consequences for misuse. I agree that the bar to obtain and retain a CWP is much too low. I've already stated that. There should be much more training required, the qualifications should be much tougher and there should be recertification requirements. Yes, there should be consequences for misuse. One can qualify with a .22 shooting at a paper target of a full-size person in calm daylight, then carry a .45 at night, that's crazy.

My past posts on the AR were simply to point out that an AR looking firearm is no more, or less, lethal than any other semi-auto rifle with a large capacity magazine. There are millions of them out there that don't look like an AR.

Some type of firearm education would be good in school. IMO violent TV, movies and video games desensitize kids to how lethal guns are, and what a real punch in the face does to someone. Real life isn't like TV where XX punches later the guy is still fighting, or ZZ shots later he is still alive.

Your "quit pretending" sentence assumes that I believe nothing can be done. U R totally wrong. Something can be done. I've asked serious question on that and adjusted my opinions based on things I'd not considered.

I do hate the fact that there are so many toy guns that look real. I saw a news report this week about some Tommy Gun looking plastic gun that shoots water droplets. They were reporting on how dangerous they were, can put your eye out and break the skin. How about outlawing anything that looks like a gun for kids? Or require them to made from orange materials. It makes it impossible for law enforcement to not shoot anyone holding a fake gun. I can hear the outrage now, "It was my innocent child, he/she was just playing and they shot him. Shot him xx times."

I just don't think that only focusing on the gun will solve it. There needs to be other societal, parental, cultural changes.

If I didn't care I wouldn't ask the questions.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

40 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

1 hour ago, billvon said:

Doesn't seem that hard to me.  "All components except fasteners shall have a readable serial and identification number."  Done.

Been out of town for a few days. To your point - it is being done. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2001/08/03/01-19418/identification-markings-placed-on-firearms-98r-341p

That is only required for the frame or receiver, not for every component. Bill is arguing for every component to have a SN.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

36 minutes ago, billeisele said:

Dang Joe do you always have to rant, make personal attacks and presume things about people that just aren't true? Why not just discuss the topic? Just trying to have a discussion.

Looking at the 2019 CDC chart data there are many states with a high # of gun deaths that also have stricter laws. Using IL and CA as examples with 1,367 and 2,945 deaths, respectively. Just in those two states that's 4,312 (42%) of the nationwide homicides from a firearm. The conclusion that the problem exists primarily in states with lax laws isn't correct. Yes, there are plenty of deaths in lax law states, TX had 3,683, but they are not the only places. Bottom line is there are too many gun deaths, period. 

Within those that study this stuff, one topic that comes up is: What happens in areas where the criminals know that there is a high risk of injury vs. an area where there is a low risk of injury. And no, I don't have the citation. Crime is higher in low risk areas, areas where there is low - to no risk of the victim fighting back. That leads to these serious questions. If carry laws are abolished does criminal activity increase? Does the suspected presence of an armed citizenry reduce crime?  We know that the thugs will continue to carry illegally.

You mentioned serious training and consequences for misuse. I agree that the bar to obtain and retain a CWP is much too low. I've already stated that. There should be much more training required, the qualifications should be much tougher and there should be recertification requirements. Yes, there should be consequences for misuse. One can qualify with a .22 shooting at a paper target of a full-size person in calm daylight, then carry a .45 at night, that's crazy.

My past posts on the AR were simply to point out that an AR looking firearm is no more, or less, lethal than any other semi-auto rifle with a large capacity magazine. There are millions of them out there that don't look like an AR.

Some type of firearm education would be good in school. IMO violent TV, movies and video games desensitize kids to how lethal guns are, and what a real punch in the face does to someone. Real life isn't like TV where XX punches later the guy is still fighting, or ZZ shots later he is still alive.

Your "quit pretending" sentence assumes that I believe nothing can be done. U R totally wrong. Something can be done. I've asked serious question on that and adjusted my opinions based on things I'd not considered.

I do hate the fact that there are so many toy guns that look real. I saw a news report this week about some Tommy Gun looking plastic gun that shoots water droplets. They were reporting on how dangerous they were, can put your eye out and break the skin. How about outlawing anything that looks like a gun for kids? Or require them to made from orange materials. It makes it impossible for law enforcement to not shoot anyone holding a fake gun. I can hear the outrage now, "It was my innocent child, he/she was just playing and they shot him. Shot him xx times."

I just don't think that only focusing on the gun will solve it. There needs to be other societal, parental, cultural changes.

If I didn't care I wouldn't ask the questions.

There was no attack. The list of things to do meant everyone. 

[billvon 2,380]

1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

Excellent. let me know how you would put a readable serial and identification number on this: (spring) 

And when it is not, how do you identify this one is really for a firearm? And what problem are you solving by mandating a SN on this?

Do all the SN have to match? Who maintains the records when components are changed?

By laser etching the base of the spring.

If it is not in a firearm it doesn't need to be serialized or IDed.

You are solving the problem of weapon proliferation.  If you can match a weapon to the person who bought it, then several problems become much easier to solve (like gun owners not reporting their weapons stolen.)

When you buy/install a new component, then you run it through the same background check procedure we have now.  If it matches, and the owner is approved via the database, no worries.  

[gowlerk 1,903]

2 hours ago, billeisele said:

Looking at the 2019 CDC chart data there are many states with a high # of gun deaths that also have stricter laws. Using IL and CA as examples with 1,367 and 2,945 deaths, respectively. Just in those two states that's 4,312 (42%) of the nationwide homicides from a firearm. The conclusion that the problem exists primarily in states with lax laws isn't correct. Yes, there are plenty of deaths in lax law states, TX had 3,683, but they are not the only places. Bottom line is there are too many gun deaths, period. 

That is because the issue is nationwide and what you call "stricter laws" are anything but strict and completely ineffective. You are completely correct. State gun laws in the US are ineffectual and always will be.

[BIGUN 1,049]

3 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

That is only required for the frame or receiver, not for every component. Bill is arguing for every component to have a SN.

Ahh. OK Didn't connect the dots. Thanks.  

[BIGUN 1,049]

3 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

let me know how you would put a readable serial and identification number on this:

True. One has to change out their magazines on a regular basis. Can't tell you how many times someone has complained to me they need their ejector fixed when all they needed was to change out the magazine (or spring).  

Edited March 17, 2022 by BIGUN

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi folks,

Probably no serial numbers on these either:  Raid of Salem home turns up what feds suspect is largest ghost gun manufacturing operation found in state - oregonlive.com

Re:   running a “massive” ghost gun operation from the basement of his mother’s house

I'm sure that she had no idea.

Jerry Baumchen

[kallend 1,621]

Western Europe, Canada, Australia etc. all have the same social ills that the USA does, and watch the same violent movies and TV programs, yet the USA is the outlier by far on homicides and gun violence (including shootings of and by police).

Why is it that the gun promoters never address the obvious reason for the disparity but revert to blaming social ills and violent TV.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

14 minutes ago, kallend said:

Western Europe, Canada, Australia etc. all have the same social ills that the USA does, and watch the same violent movies and TV programs, yet the USA is the outlier by far on homicides and gun violence (including shootings of and by police).

Why is it that the gun promoters never address the obvious reason for the disparity but revert to blaming social ills and violent TV.

Because it's not about their guns, it's about their identity.

[kallend 1,621]

And more:

https://www.kark.com/crime/asp-at-least-10-shot-outside-event-in-dumas/

 

[kallend 1,621]

Killing the nation's symbol too:

Chicago tribune, March 23

Illinois Raptor Center director Jacques Nuzzo shows bald eagles that died from lead poisoning at the center on Friday. A recent study found that nearly 50% of eagles have high levels of lead, and experts blame lead hunting ammo. 

The bald eagle was struggling for breath when it arrived at the Illinois Raptor Center in Decatur. Seizures shook the bird’s iconic snow-white head. Its dark wings rose and stiffened at awkward angles.
“Aw, man,” program director Jacques Nuzzo said to himself. “This is lead.”
He rushed to the eagle’s aid and stayed late into the night, dispensing difficult-to-obtain medication, as well as fluid for hydration and kind words for comfort. But the seizures continued, racking the bird’s body every five or 10 minutes.
By noon the next day, the patient was dead.
Such suffering is largely preventable, experts say, with studies showing a strong link between widespread lead poisoning in eagles and the use of lead ammunition by deer hunters. The ammunition fragments and disperses in a deer’s body, and eagles ingest it when they feast on “gut piles,” the internal
organs that hunters remove and leave behind.
Other forms of ammunition are available — including copper and tungsten options — but information hasn’t been readily available to hunters, and uptake has been slow.
“It gets more frustrating every time I see one (of these cases). It’s really awful,” said Nuzzo, who treated the lead-poisoned eagle March 8, just two days after another eagle with lead poisoning died on its way to the same raptor center.
“This is a problem that has been going on for over 80 years, and it’s a little mind-blowing that nothing has really, majorly, been done about it,” Nuzzo said.
The Illinois Raptor Center, a 25-acre wildlife rehabilitation and education facility, has admitted 38 bald eagles since 2018, Nuzzo said. Of those, 19 had unhealthy lead levels and eight died from lead poisoning.
The lead poisoning issue got additional attention in February when the journal Science published a study of more than 1,200 eagles in 38 states that were tested for lead from 2010 to 2018. Almost half the eagles in the study had chronic lead poisoning.
The study found that cases of recent lead poisoning rise in winter, when eagles are most likely to be feeding on contaminated deer carcasses and gut piles.
Other studies show similar correlations and older research — conducted with portable X-ray devices up to 20 years ago — found that hunters’ discarded carcasses often contained lead fragments, according to study co-author Vincent Slabe, a wildlife research biologist at the nonprofit Conservation Science Global in Bozeman, Montana.
In addition, wildlife rehabilitation centers with X-ray machines have been able to show that when eagles have high lead levels, they often also have lead fragments in their digestive systems.
“When you start piecing all of that together, there are very strong correlations suggesting that this is the pathway whereby eagles are lead-poisoned,” Slabe said.
The U.S. banned the use of lead ammunition in waterfowl hunting in 1991, due in part to concerns that the birds were experiencing lead poisoning, and California banned all lead hunting ammunition in 2019. A lead hunting ammunition ban was introduced in the Illinois Senate in 2019 but didn’t gain traction.
The Congressional Sportsmen’s Foundation, which has opposed lead ammunition bans, could not be reached for comment.
Some eagle advocates lean toward a ban, with Nuzzo saying that at this point “it’s probably the best bet.”
But Slabe disagreed, saying that bans can easily backfire, putting hunters — who tend to be pro-conservation and sympathetic to eagles — on the defensive.
“I’m pro-hunter. I’m pro-conservation. I’m also pro-eagle,” Slabe said.
He said information about the effect of lead on eagles hasn’t been widely available, and he cited an Arizona study that found that after a comprehensive public relations and education program, more than 80% of hunters took steps to protect California condors from lead poisoning. The hunters either switched to non-lead ammunition or put their gut piles in trash bags and removed them from wildlife areas.
Slabe said that when a deer is shot, lead bullets fragment and disperse in the animal’s body, leaving dozens — or even hundreds — of pieces of toxic metal, some of them only a little larger than the head of a pin.
If an eagle eats the contaminated meat, lead can cause problems with breathing, circulation, reproduction or respiration. Some eagles with lead poisoning lose their ability to fly. Eagles can also suffer brain damage or get food stuck in the crop — a storage area in the esophagus — and starve to death.
The lead poisoning problem is serious enough to suppress population growth for the estimated 340,000 eagles living in the United States, Slabe’s study found.
The bald eagle population, which currently increases by 10% a year, would increase by about 14% without lead poisoning, the study found. Similarly, the golden eagle population would grow at a rate of about 1% a year, up from zero growth today.
A hunter and fisherman, Nuzzo had already eliminated lead from most of his outdoor equipment when he treated the lead-poisoned eagle earlier this month, but that experience has inspired him to go further.
Now, he said, he’s working on removing the last remnants of the toxic metal from his fishing gear.
“It has to start with us,” Nuzzo said. “It would be a lot easier if you made the choice, rather than the government telling you what to do.”
 

[kallend 1,621]

The red-state murder problem:

https://www.thirdway.org/report/the-red-state-murder-problem

• In 2020, per capita murder rates were 40% higher in states won by Donald Trump than those won by Joe Biden.
•  8 of the 10 states with the highest murder rates in 2020 voted for the Republican presidential nominee in every election this century.

[BIGUN 1,049]

Indiana's Governor; Eric Holcomb vetoes the trans sports bill and then turns around and signs the constitutional carry. Can anyone else hear the back room deals going on? Shame on both sides.  

[Phil1111 908]

18 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Indiana's Governor; Eric Holcomb vetoes the trans sports bill and then turns around and signs the constitutional carry. Can anyone else hear the back room deals going on? Shame on both sides.  

A split hair on the head of a politician is difficult to find. But there are some on occasion.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

36 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

A split hair on the head of a politician is difficult to find. But there are some on occasion.

Hi Phil,

But, a forked tongue is easy to notice.

Jerry Baumchen