More sacrifices to the 2nd Amendment

[jakee 1,254]

6 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Well done, Norseman, in your endless effort to take a counter position you can now add opposition to gun laws to your resume.

I can imagine how surprised you're going to be when you find out that support for gun control and opposition to mandatory minimum sentencing is not exactly a unique position. 

[BIGUN 1,049]

1 minute ago, billvon said:

How about - give them life in prison?  What's wrong with that?

If we can agree on - without parole. 

[jakee 1,254]

On 8/7/2021 at 1:12 PM, BIGUN said:

I'm also in favor of a 10X rule - use a gun during the commission of a crime = automatic 10 years added with no parole.  

The USA is already the most incarcerated nation on earth with the most punitive sentencing system of any non-dictatorship. But yeah, I'm totally sure that adding one more mandatory minimum to the mix will be just the ticket. It'll be totally productive without unfairly ruining anyone's life.

[billvon 2,380]

5 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

If we can agree on - without parole. 

Sure.  That's doable with or without mandatory sentencing.

[mistercwood 287]

22 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

When you said, "I'm not sure I can get on board with this part." I'm for putting animals that attack in cages.  EDIT: For long periods of time to protect society. 

I can't get on board with mandatory sentencing, for the same reason I'm not on board with the death penalty - innocent, or at least less-guilty, people get caught up in the same net.

This is not in any way inconsistent with agreeing that the culprit in your hypothetical can go away indefinitely.

As others have pointed out, your passion for some of the particulars here is getting in the way of your usually *very* level-headed discourse. You're fighting against points no one has made.

[jakee 1,254]

10 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

If we can agree on - without parole. 

But let's just be clear here, you think that the person who violently rapes and sodomises your wife or daughter without having a gun should not get a life sentence and should be allowed parole, right?

Because, y'know, if you're being honest, why else would you have used it as an example?

[gowlerk 1,902]

3 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Every sixteen hours a woman is shot dead by their ex or current partner. ~Brady United. 

Yes, after suicides domestic violence is the most common murder scenario. And men killing women they are angry at over personal conflict is the usual. WTF does any of that have to do with the daughter being bent over and ass raped at gun point thing that you posted?

[BIGUN 1,049]

9 hours ago, mistercwood said:

I can't get on board with mandatory sentencing, for the same reason I'm not on board with the death penalty - innocent, or at least less-guilty, people get caught up in the same net.

I'm opposed to the death penalty. We'll have to disagree on mandatory sentencing. And, maybe I haven't clarified for those found guilty of violent crimes (Guns, knives, etc. where the intent was to maim, rape, kill, etc.) There are some seriously evil people in the world. They cannot be rehabilitated.  

 

9 hours ago, mistercwood said:

This is not in any way inconsistent with agreeing that the culprit in your hypothetical can go away indefinitely.

Good.

9 hours ago, mistercwood said:

As others have pointed out, your passion for some of the particulars here is getting in the way of your usually *very* level-headed discourse. You're fighting against points no one has made.

Thank you for the compliment. 

I was making those points. 

[jakee 1,254]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

10 hours ago, mistercwood said:

This is not in any way inconsistent with agreeing that the culprit in your hypothetical can go away indefinitely.

Good.

But again, just to be absolutely clear about the point you're trying to make, you think he should only go away indefinitely if he has a gun while threatening to kill and violently raping your wife, right? If he threatens to kill and violently rapes your wife without using a gun, you're ok with him re-entering society at some point?

[jakee 1,254]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

I'm opposed to the death penalty. We'll have to disagree on mandatory sentencing. And, maybe I haven't clarified for those found guilty of violent crimes (Guns, knives, etc. where the intent was to maim, rape, kill, etc.) There are some seriously evil people in the world. They cannot be rehabilitated.  

That's not a clarification, it's a completely different statement to the one you made.

You said there shoud be an added sentence for using a gun, period. Someone even asked what about knives, and you said guns were worse. Now you're saying you want anyone guilty of any violent crime with guns, knives or any weapon to go away forever? How exactly do you add a 10 year gun use tarriff to a life sentence? Do you want a specific deterrent for gun use or not?

[BIGUN 1,049]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

You said there shoud be an added sentence for using a gun, period. Someone even asked what about knives, and you said guns were worse. Now you're saying you want anyone guilty of any violent crime with guns, knives or any weapon to go away forever? How exactly do you add a 10 year gun use tarriff to a life sentence? Do you want a specific deterrent for gun use or not?

You really don't have to complicate it.

A life sentence usually results in an average 15 years served. There's a reason Judges hand out multiple life sentences. Adding ten years for the use of a gun, 5 years for use of a knife - added to the life sentence forces more time and more parole hearings.  

The bottom line is - the liberals have screwed up the sentencing aspect of the judicial system with their rehabilitation bullshit. I'm talking serious violent crime - not lesser crimes. You cannot rehabilitate most violent offenders. 

And, before you turn this into another Jakee circular argument ad nauseum - you're a relatively intelligent man and know exactly what I'm saying. Agree, disagree, IDC.

[gowlerk 1,902]

30 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

The bottom line is - the liberals have screwed up the sentencing aspect of the judicial system with their rehabilitation bullshit.

Liberals hate having their daughters bent over and ass raped at gun point just as much as conservatives do. No one is calling for shorter sentences for this sort of crime. Both liberals and conservatives have now recognized that the size of the US prison population is much too large and that one of the main reasons for that is mandatory sentencing laws, especially for non-violent drug crimes. 

The sentencing aspect of your judicial system is indeed screwed up. White college aged upper class rapists get probation while small time drug dealers from inner cities get 10 years. Idiot white lawyers who wave weapons in the faces of protesters get pardons while right winger young men go hunting down and killing other protesters and make bail by getting support from those who wish their were even more of that sort of victim. Shooting people is just okey-dokey if they are the sort of people who support the BLM movement apparently. 

Conservatives have done a fine job of screwing up the sentencing aspect of the judicial system without a thought to rehabilitation bullshit at all.

Edited August 9, 2021 by gowlerk

[Phil1111 908]

33 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

.... You cannot rehabilitate most violent offenders. ...

Many studies done on these issues both in the US and elsewhere. Many law abiding pro-gun owners think harsher sentencing is the answer. Make the use of guns so punitive that they would use other weapons.

"THE IMPACT OF INCARCERATION ON THE
RISK OF VIOLENT RECIDIVISM"

"Yet rigorous empirical studies on the nature of the incarceration—recidivism link are limited. As a whole, existing research suggests that the effect of imprisonment, relative to non-custodial sanctions, is either null or slightly criminogenic. These findings call into question the ability of prisons to exert a specific deterrent effect."

 

 

[jakee 1,254]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

You really don't have to complicate it.

A life sentence usually results in an average 15 years served. There's a reason Judges hand out multiple life sentences. Adding ten years for the use of a gun, 5 years for use of a knife - added to the life sentence forces more time and more parole hearings.  

You already said there shouldn't be parole anyway. How complicated is it for you to keep track of your own statements?

But once again, just so we're both absolutely clear and on the same page, you are saying now that you're ok with the idea of the man who anally raped your wife being released back into society ten years earlier because he did it at knifepoint, not gunpoint?

Quote

The bottom line is - the liberals have screwed up the sentencing aspect of the judicial system with their rehabilitation bullshit. I'm talking serious violent crime - not lesser crimes. You cannot rehabilitate most violent offenders. 

Then why is rampant gun violence a uniquely American problem if the solution is harsher sentencing? America already has the harshest sentencing in the world, and it's not even close. You have the least free population in the world, in large part because of extremely harsh mandatory sentencing, and yet you still have all this gun violence. Explain why just one more massive mandatory penalty will make any difference?

Quote

And, before you turn this into another Jakee circular argument ad nauseum - you're a relatively intelligent man and know exactly what I'm saying. Agree, disagree, IDC.

Lol, there's nothing circular about this. How could there be when you're twisting and turning all over the place to avoid answering straightforward challenges to the argument you chose to introduce? It's just another classic Bigun being too proud to admit he fucked up and said something stupid moment.

I know you don't approach this forum with the same intent as Brenthutch but damn you do a great impersonation of him sometimes.

[kallend 1,620]

Given that such a huge % of guns used in crimes are obtained illegally, I suggest at least attempting to close down the pipeline by (a) undoing the legislation that hobbles the BATFE from following the trail, (b) very long sentences for the straw purchasers and illegal dealers, (c) all transactions must be recorded, (d) if an illegal gun is used in a crime, all the illegal dealers along the trail are automatically charged as accessories.

[BIGUN 1,049]

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

"THE IMPACT OF INCARCERATION ON THE
RISK OF VIOLENT RECIDIVISM"

Phil. I'm going to be very clear on my position when it comes to violent offenders. On page 7 it states; "They are exposed to a prison environment that includes various noxious stimuli including criminal victimization, harsh or erratic supervision and crowded, noisy, and unpleasant living conditions.20 bonds between inmates, their families, and social support networks are severed, isolating individuals from conventional people and institutions.21"

I say Good. It should be that much and more. There should be no college, no trade school, Life means life without parole, 15 years means 15 years without parole, Etc. Personally, I would not have any problem with the judge using his/her sentencing matrix for the maximum penalty and then we ship them over to the Russian Gulags to serve out their sentence. 

Clear enough?

[BIGUN 1,049]

34 minutes ago, kallend said:

Given that such a huge % of guns used in crimes are obtained illegally, I suggest at least attempting to close down the pipeline by (a) undoing the legislation that hobbles the BATFE from following the trail, (b) very long sentences for the straw purchasers and illegal dealers, (c) all transactions must be recorded, (d) if an illegal gun is used in a crime, all the illegal dealers along the trail are automatically charged as accessories.

Excellent - now package it up and send it to your state and federal legislators. 

[jakee 1,254]

9 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Phil. I'm going to be very clear on my position when it comes to violent offenders. On page 7 it states; "They are exposed to a prison environment that includes various noxious stimuli including criminal victimization, harsh or erratic supervision and crowded, noisy, and unpleasant living conditions.20 bonds between inmates, their families, and social support networks are severed, isolating individuals from conventional people and institutions.21"

I say Good. It should be that much and more. There should be no college, no trade school, Life means life without parole, 15 years means 15 years without parole, Etc. Personally, I would not have any problem with the judge using his/her sentencing matrix for the maximum penalty and then we ship them over to the Russian Gulags to serve out their sentence. 

Clear enough?

No, that's not clear. Mostly because you've just proved that you're lying, either to us or to yourself.

You said that your stance was about protecting society. Putting someone in prison for 15 years with no access to education, social work, support of any kind does a worse job of protecting society than putting them in prison for 15 years with those things. What you want is not useful, it's not noble, it's not for the greater good. What you want is a personal feeling of revenge.

[Phil1111 908]

19 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Phil. I'm going to be very clear on my position.....

Clear enough?

Clear but disappointing given your previous history of having a open, flexible mind with regards to science and facts.

[gowlerk 1,902]

46 minutes ago, jakee said:

What you want is a personal feeling of revenge.

An old question. Punishment, deterrence, or both? The safest answer is a swift execution, but that is more than a little problematic. Keith wants the US to be more like China I guess. With the State holding a strong hand and enforcing compliance. Who knew justice was so complicated?

[BIGUN 1,049]

2 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Clear but disappointing given your previous history of having a open, flexible mind with regards to science and facts.

I understand, Phil. But, here's a fact. Did you know there's all kinds of government programs to help the incarcerated, but virtually nothing to help the families of the victims. Any idea how many mothers are grieving over their murdered children. Mothers and fathers and brothers of daughters, sisters that are killed each year. 

Revenge, Yes. I want revenge for those families. 

Here - give them a call. Share this poor pitiful criminal needs rehabilitation theory with them. Make sure to talk to the mothers and fathers of the victims.  

National Organization of Parents of Murdered Children
1-888-818-POMC or 1-888-818-7662
www.pomc.com

National Center for Victims of Crime
202-467-8700
www.ncvc.org

The Compassionate Friends
1-877-969-0010
www.compassionatefriends.org

  I'm done here. I've got more important "overly-dramatic" things to do to make the "US more like China." I guess.  

[jakee 1,254]

38 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

I understand, Phil. But, here's a fact. Did you know there's all kinds of government programs to help the incarcerated, but virtually nothing to help the families of the victims. Any idea how many mothers are grieving over their murdered children. Mothers and fathers and brothers of daughters, sisters that are killed each year. 

It's hard to take you seriously all the way up on that high horse when you don't appear to want to change that.

Here's a novel thought - maybe those families would be helped more by being helped instead of by taking rehabilitation programs away from prisons. What do you think?

Quote

Here - give them a call. Share this poor pitiful criminal needs rehabilitation theory with them. Make sure to talk to the mothers and fathers of the victims. 

Right, because again, these are the people most likely to come up with rational, productive plans. Because look, unless you institute life without parole for any and every violent offense many of these prisoners will at some point be released back into society. Why don't you explain to the victims of recidivists why you felt it was best for them to be released having learned nothing more than how to do the crimes that put them away in the first place?

Quote

I'm done here.

What a surprise. 

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

8 hours ago, BIGUN said:

I'm opposed to the death penalty. We'll have to disagree on mandatory sentencing. And, maybe I haven't clarified for those found guilty of violent crimes (Guns, knives, etc. where the intent was to maim, rape, kill, etc.) There are some seriously evil people in the world. They cannot be rehabilitated.  

 

Good.

Thank you for the compliment. 

I was making those points. 

Hi Keith,

Re:  I'm opposed to the death penalty.

As am I.  It is barbaric & it has killed too many innocent people.  Plus, I consider life w/o parole as a worse punishment.

Re:  We'll have to disagree on mandatory sentencing.

We've had Measure 15, a mandatory sentencing law, here in Oregon for quite a few years.  IMO it is not the answer and there are a couple of attempts at this time to get rid of it. Also, it results in crowded prisons.

Re:  There are some seriously evil people in the world. They cannot be rehabilitated.  

I agree; we should focus on those than can be rehabilitated.  One of my high school classmates did around 10 yrs for a crime.  It taught him a lesson; he was determined never to go back inside ever again.  Oddly, he is a very likable guy with a great personality.

IMO a mandatory sentence takes away the discretion of the judge(s).  So why have them?  I am a believer that the purpose of a judge is to judge => let them decide on the sentence(s).  And, I am OK with the judge considering the type of weapon used when sentencing a criminal.

Jerry Baumchen

 

[SkyDekker 1,120]

19 hours ago, BIGUN said:

If we can agree on - without parole. 

That's easy, you already give that to shoplifters.

[Phil1111 908]

2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

I understand, Phil. But, here's a fact. Did you know there's all kinds of government programs to help the incarcerated, but virtually nothing to help the families of the victims. ....

There are no winners when crime is involved except perhaps white collar when the perpetrator gets away with the crime.

2 hours ago, jakee said:

It's hard to take you seriously all the way up on that high horse when you don't appear to want to change that.

Here's a novel thought - maybe those families would be helped more by being helped instead of by taking rehabilitation programs away from prisons. What do you think?

Right, because again, these are the people most likely to come up with rational, productive plans. Because look, unless you institute life without parole for any and every violent offense many of these prisoners will at some point be released back into society. Why don't you explain to the victims of recidivists why you felt it was best for them to be released having learned nothing more than how to do the crimes that put them away in the first place?

What a surprise. 

I see no evidence of any high horse. Just an opinion to which we agree to disagree.