More sacrifices to the 2nd Amendment

[SkyDekker 1,121]

On 6/6/2021 at 7:32 AM, BIGUN said:

The right is NEVER going to do anything about it, cause they're winning

For a Canadian it is hard to see how mass shooting after mass shooting is 'winning".

[gowlerk 1,903]

4 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Ken, you take it too far. Guns are used in war but so are knives and sticks and stones. Who knows what the firearm was used in the assault? It could have been a pistol like cops use for all we know at this point. When I worked in Canada I once gifted someone a nice rifle I bought at the Winnipeg Cabela's. He's a First Nations guy who loves to hunt. Are you in favor of disarming the First Nations people of their tools of war?

Joe, you are missing the point. America has evolved a culture where it is normal to drive around armed. Your otherwise mostly civilized nation is getting to the point where any public conflict can easily result in a shooting death. All because you demand "rights". Tools of war are also tools of hunting. Taking a gun from your home on a hunt, and owning guns for that purpose are a completely different thing. It's always the same with you people and your lust for weapons. You assume losing the absolute right to whatever guns you want mean that the evil government will take all of them away and leave you feeling naked and vulnerable. That is not what gun control is. It is not an all or nothing proposistion.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

2 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

For a Canadian it is hard to see how mass shooting after mass shooting is 'winning".

It's almost as if the point is being willfully missed. No one sane thinks mass shootings are ever a win. The point is that firearms ownership in America will never be eliminated. Consequently, pointing out each and every gun travesty as evidence they must be banned is a pointless exercise. You need to accept that Americans are ten times as many as Canadians and our histories are far from identical. Simply put, it's different here. 

I personally think the second amendment was never intended to be interpreted as it has been by our courts. In fact, I place responsibility for most of these senseless deaths on our courthouse steps. But that doesn't matter. We have what we have and the best we can hope for, at this point, is incremental change.

[gowlerk 1,903]

5 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

The point is that firearms ownership in America will never be eliminated.

Again, it is not all or nothing Joe. Open your eyes to the possibilities. 

[JoeWeber 2,294]

1 minute ago, gowlerk said:

Again, it is not all or nothing Joe. Open your eyes to the possibilities. 

You read what I post, right?

[gowlerk 1,903]

Just now, JoeWeber said:

You read what I post, right?

The 2nd is currently being interpreted in a way consistent with what it says. It needs to be changed. I can not see how the courts are in error. It is very short and it's meaning is fairly clear. People like you and Keith and  our other Joe and millions of others need to get behind the many decade effort to change it. Or, most likely not and you will just go on accepting the carnage because in your heart you don't want to give up your "rights". Because most likely it will always be some else's child shot and you won't be personally affected.

[wmw999 2,116]

It'd be hard to say that Keith hasn't given it some serious effort -- he's the one who sent to his congresscritter a thought-out approach that he thought would fly in the more conservative areas -- because anything that is passed has to pass in the more conservative areas. They just do.

Wendy P.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

23 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Consequently, pointing out each and every gun travesty as evidence they must be banned is a pointless exercise.

It is almost as if the point is wilfully being missed. Very few are calling for complete bans. It is nothing more that a right wing talking point, to drum up fear. The liberals are going to take everything away from you, rise!

Your current system was described by BIGUN as "winning" for the right wing, implying that they do not want to see anything changed. The current system produces an ungodly amount of mass shootings. Winning, indeed.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

4 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

It'd be hard to say that Keith hasn't given it some serious effort -- he's the one who sent to his congresscritter a thought-out approach that he thought would fly in the more conservative areas -- because anything that is passed has to pass in the more conservative areas. They just do.

Wendy P.

And those some conservative congresscritters have indicated over and over again that they will resist anything and everything related to gun-control. What gun-control effort has been broadly supported by conservative congresscritters? What suggestions have they made to curb gun-violence? What willingness have they shown to change?

Edited June 7, 2021 by SkyDekker

[gowlerk 1,903]

11 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

It'd be hard to say that Keith hasn't given it some serious effort

But he absolutely does not want the 2nd changed. He wants to have his cake and eat it too. Until people like him change their mind about the "Holy 2nd" no real change will happen. And that is most likely beyond the lifetimes of all of us.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

The 2nd is currently being interpreted in a way consistent with what it says. It needs to be changed. I can not see how the courts are in error. It is very short and it's meaning is fairly clear. People like you and Keith and  our other Joe and millions of others need to get behind the many decade effort to change it. Or, most likely not and you will just go on accepting the carnage because in your heart you don't want to give up your "rights". Because most likely it will always be some else's child shot and you won't be personally affected.

Ken, I think Scalia pretzel twisted the phrase into an individual right as I've previously posted. No matter, my fight isn't with you or skydekker. In truth, there s much we agree on. My fight is with Americans who believe as you guy's do. I need them to understand this goes nowhere with a burn it down and build new strategy.

[gowlerk 1,903]

15 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I need them to understand this goes nowhere with a burn it down and build new strategy.

You are correct there. For the foreseeable future. The 2nd will not be changed until something in the American system changes. And that won't happen without SHTF someday. Long after you and I and Ron are long gone of course. But knowing that is not likely to stop me from pointing out the folly of the situation over and over again.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

29 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I need them to understand this goes nowhere with a burn it down and build new strategy.

There is no real strategy that will work though. Conservatives will do two things:

• Label any proposed change a "ban"
• Blame Liberals for not proposing anything that isn't a ban.

[BIGUN 1,050]

12 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

There is no real strategy that will work though. Conservatives will do two things:

• Label any proposed change a "ban"
• Blame Liberals for not proposing anything that isn't a ban.

In part because Biden said this:  Today, I am calling on Congress to enact commonsense gun law reforms, including requiring background checks on all gun sales, banning assault weapons and high-capacity magazines, and eliminating immunity for gun manufacturers who knowingly put weapons of war on our streets. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/02/14/statement-by-the-president-three-years-after-the-parkland-shooting/

Blame the conservatives for your inability to settle on a gun-control agenda that focuses on keeping "dangerous people" from having guns, rather than banning guns entirely. Nice game of hot potato.

Here, read this please. 

https://apnews.com/article/366d66c437ab486820e30bec549c4c0b 

Edited June 8, 2021 by BIGUN

[Phil1111 908]

19 hours ago, gowlerk said:

But he absolutely does not want the 2nd changed. He wants to have his cake and eat it too. Until people like him change their mind about the "Holy 2nd" no real change will happen. And that is most likely beyond the lifetimes of all of us.

The second is not the issue. "Assault weapons" bans have been passed before. There is nothing inherently wrong with gun ownership, even high capacity magazines.Its keeping them out of the hands of people who should not own them.

The attack in Canada in the last week on a Muslim family that killed four. Was committed by a 20 Y/O male with no criminal history. He could have obtained a handgun with 10 round magazines with not much effort, legally. Then perhaps killed many more.One of my first thoughts was did Canadian gun control, being what it is. Keep him from pursuing that course of action.

5 hours ago, BIGUN said:

In part because Biden said this:  Today, I am calling on Congress to enact commonsense gun law reforms, including requiring background checks on all gun sales, banning assault weapons and high-capacity magazines, and eliminating immunity for gun manufacturers who knowingly put weapons of war on our streets. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/02/14/statement-by-the-president-three-years-after-the-parkland-shooting/

Blame the conservatives for your inability to settle on a gun-control agenda that focuses on keeping "dangerous people" from having guns, rather than banning guns entirely. Nice game of hot potato.

Here, read this please. 

https://apnews.com/article/366d66c437ab486820e30bec549c4c0b 

I agree that the issues of gun violence can be addressed w/o the nuclear options of bans and attacking the 2nd amendment. But where is the GOP? McConnell?

Overall with the Dems in charge its up to them to introduce passable measures.Its a mistake to speak of bans.

[Phil1111 908]

18 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Ken, I think Scalia pretzel twisted the phrase into an individual right as I've previously posted. No matter, my fight isn't with you or skydekker. In truth, there s much we agree on. My fight is with Americans who believe as you guy's do. I need them to understand this goes nowhere with a burn it down and build new strategy.

Absolutely correct. Bans and any attacks on the 2nd are DOA. The conservative courts will allow common sense restrictions. Its time to start on that. But with Texas "open carry for all" thinking its not going to be easy.

Biden has the cards now. The NRA is on the ropes financially. Biden needs to turn his VP loose on the ideas that BIGUN has proposed, as a start.

[gowlerk 1,903]

11 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

The second is not the issue. "Assault weapons" bans have been passed before. There is nothing inherently wrong with gun ownership, even high capacity magazines.Its keeping them out of the hands of people who should not own them.

Nothing wrong at all. As long as American society is willing to tolerate a firearm death rate at least 5 times higher than anywhere else. And police who shoot first and ask questions later because everyone is armed. And angry people who lose their temper and shoot. The 2nd Amendment is absolutely the issue. It is an anomaly in the civilized world. It is a gross error. And it is nearly impossible to fix until the carnage gets greater.

Edited June 8, 2021 by gowlerk

[Phil1111 908]

14 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Nothing wrong at all. As long as American society is willing to tolerate a firearm death rate at least 5 times higher than anywhere else. And police who shoot first and ask questions later because everyone is armed. And angry people who lose their temper and shoot. The 2nd Amendment is absolutely the issue. It is an anomaly in the civilized world. It is a gross error. And it is nearly impossible to fix until the carnage gets greater.

I feel the same sense of frustration that you do. But there is more than one way to most objectives.

[BIGUN 1,050]

22 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

The 2nd Amendment is absolutely the issue.

You just keep making my point. 

[gowlerk 1,903]

1 minute ago, Phil1111 said:

I feel the same sense of frustration that you do. But there is more than one way to most objectives.

Well, it isn't really a problem that occupies my mind in my real life. It's really just here that I have a fair amount of focus on it. I spend a lot of my time in the US and I am never actually concerned that I may become a victim. And neither are most Americans. Which is why the majority are simply prepared to tolerate the situation. Most of my frustration comes not from the facts on the ground, but rather from people who just won't acknowledge the problem for what it is. America is still a great place, even with the relative insanity of the 2nd!

[gowlerk 1,903]

1 minute ago, BIGUN said:

You just keep making my point. 

As you do mine.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

8 hours ago, BIGUN said:

In part because Biden said this:  Today, I am calling on Congress to enact commonsense gun law reforms, including requiring background checks on all gun sales, banning assault weapons and high-capacity magazines, and eliminating immunity for gun manufacturers who knowingly put weapons of war on our streets.

So it bans a type of gun and not all guns. And you are proving my point.

Should also note that in recent history that one measure, the banning of assault weapons and high capacity magazines is the only measure that has curbed mass shootings. making my point again, conservatives will never support anything that will make a difference.

[BIGUN 1,050]

1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

So it bans a type of gun and not all guns. And you are proving my point.

Should also note that in recent history that one measure, the banning of assault weapons and high capacity magazines is the only measure that has curbed mass shootings. making my point again, conservatives will never support anything that will make a difference.

Living in Canada - you really don't have to worry about it.  

[SkyDekker 1,121]

32 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Living in Canada - you really don't have to worry about it.  

True. But that doesn't take away form the fact I would prefer Americans not mass murdering each other so frequently.

[gowlerk 1,903]

43 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Living in Canada - you really don't have to worry about it.  

Americans can be soooooo annoying sometimes. "We are the leaders of the free world, do as we say and don't criticize us you foreigner you!"

Edited June 8, 2021 by gowlerk