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billvon

House blocks deportation of US military veterans

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1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

That's not what I was saying. There is a law that gives them a path. But it isn't necessarily a clear path nor obviously well documented or facilitated during military service. Lots of stories from deported veterans about that. Your argument was that all veterans are in favour of immediate path to citizenship for those who have served. However, there is clearly no immediate path, which is what my comment about it not being the law was about..

That's what you were saying, but not what you meant, there is a path, but there's not a path that's clear, which is what I was talking about, but it's not a law.

It's OK; we got this.  

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6 hours ago, BIGUN said:

I never said it was very clear or the process had been communicated well. I was refuting your argument that no law exists. It would help if the media did a PSA of informing instead of thrashing the same - doesn't exist message. I sit on several veterans committees and, 1) many of us just learned of this ourselves not long ago and it angered us, and 2) we're working with the VA, DoD and DHS to get the message out in a formal process. For DoD to have formal classes during orientation, for DHS to triple-check before deporting veterans, and for the VA to help ensure the process is completed.  

Hi Keith,

Re:   I sit on several veterans committees and, 1) many of us just learned of this ourselves not long ago and it angered us, and 2) we're working with the VA, DoD and DHS to get the message out in a formal process.

Good for you; and, bless your pea-picking little heart.  ;P

Jerry Baumchen

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3 hours ago, BIGUN said:

That's what you were saying, but not what you meant, there is a path, but there's not a path that's clear, which is what I was talking about, but it's not a law.

It's OK; we got this.  

So, as I understand it now:

There is clear and easy path to enlist. Recruiters likely tell non-Americans that serving in the military provides a path to naturalization. Then once you are in, turns out path isn't that clear, not that many resources available etc. Then once you are out and of no further use there is no to little support and no protections from deportation.

So they get used on the way in, used and broken during service, not supported once broken and then deported when of no further use. All very transactional in nature, with any potential benefit hard to achieve and really dependant on the individual fighting for themselves.

That does all sound very American to me, which was my original point. It is all very on brand. Including the charities set up to help these people. Government not involved with helping people and to let charities (and of course the deductions for contributions) do the work.

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1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

So they get used on the way in, used and broken during service, not supported once broken and then deported when of no further use. All very transactional in nature, with any potential benefit hard to achieve and really dependant on the individual fighting for themselves.

Let's just agree to your always end game, so we can move on - Canada great; America sucks. 

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23 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Let's just agree to your always end game, so we can move on - Canada great; America sucks. 

Self reflection is touch, I get it. America, Fuck Yeah is a thing for a reason. As a nation you (general) have spent decades telling the world you are the best at everything. Unfortunately often when challenged Americans get grumpy.

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3 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Self reflection is touch, I get it. America, Fuck Yeah is a thing for a reason. As a nation you (general) have spent decades telling the world you are the best at everything. Unfortunately often when challenged Americans get grumpy.

If you really are a Canadian, and not a bot, then you ought to know the first rule about hunting Wolverines: if you trap one in it's den and it's eye's turn red, leave it trapped. Oh, but that's real life not the pretend keyboard world that helps you compensate. Check your news feed dude, we Americans aren't all the jingoistic assholes that you imagine.

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2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

If you really are a Canadian, and not a bot, then you ought to know the first rule about hunting Wolverines: if you trap one in it's den and it's eye's turn red, leave it trapped. Oh, but that's real life not the pretend keyboard world that helps you compensate. Check your news feed dude, we Americans aren't all the jingoistic assholes that you imagine.

Its useful for Canadian politicians and some Canadians to paint the US as a deeply dysfunctional, broken nation. It allows them to paint a weaker, dependent and somewhat subservient state as superior. No two countries in the world are closer in language, trade, geography, racial makeup, entertainment, etc. But labeling the extreme of America as normal and acceptable. Foments for them a more Canadian identity a progressivism  absent in American-style politics.

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2 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Its useful for Canadian politicians and some Canadians to paint the US as a deeply dysfunctional, broken nation. It allows them to paint a weaker, dependent and somewhat subservient state as superior.

For some demographics, the easiest way to elevate oneself is to tear down someone else.  Always has been that way, always will be.  For people like that it's a zero sum game - if you can diminish someone else you are improved by comparison.

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26 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Its useful for Canadian politicians and some Canadians to paint the US as a deeply dysfunctional, broken nation...

We ARE a 'deeply dysfunctional, broken nation'.

We're finally seeing cops being tried for murdering people in custody (or being murdered while being taken into custody).

We just saw how deeply broken the military is and how women are treated within it. 

We just saw 74 million people vote for a criminal, who wanted to be a despot.

We are still seeing the Republican party try to disenfranchise millions of voters, mostly minorities and the poor.

We're seeing the results of disregarding science, dismissing education and pretending that ignorance is 'just fine'. One of those results is the highest death toll from Covid in the world. 

During the pandemic, the rich got richer and the poor got poorer. The amount of wealth gained by the richest people in the past year is appalling. 

Many of these things have long existed, and the true extent of them is just now being revealed. 

The idea of "American Exceptionalism" is one of the most arrogant pieces of nonsense I've ever seen, and yet it seems to be growing. 

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12 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

So, as I understand it now:

There is clear and easy path to enlist. Recruiters likely tell non-Americans that serving in the military provides a path to naturalization. Then once you are in, turns out path isn't that clear, not that many resources available etc. Then once you are out and of no further use there is no to little support and no protections from deportation.

So they get used on the way in, used and broken during service, not supported once broken and then deported when of no further use. All very transactional in nature, with any potential benefit hard to achieve and really dependant on the individual fighting for themselves.

That does all sound very American to me, which was my original point. It is all very on brand. Including the charities set up to help these people. Government not involved with helping people and to let charities (and of course the deductions for contributions) do the work.

at the risk of feeding the troll...no you don't understand it.  what usually happens, since you have no knowledge other than however you normally get your information, is that non-citizens are enlisted and told they have a clear path to citizenship.  this is true, it is very clear, and gets them a green card after a year.  i know a few recruiters and that is their main selling points for them, so they make it very clear.  it's not their fault that some are too stupid to follow through.  it is very clear that when they get the card, they need to apply for naturalization, like everyone else, which was relayed to them upon enlistment.  again, not the recruiter's fault if the soldier forgot, waited too long, or was too stupid to do it. 

 

i can assure you that the recruiter will use every tool they have to get the soldier enlisted.  no way they forget to tell non-citizens that they can get a green card and citizenship by enlisting.  quotas exist and are hard to fill at some times, and even more when you've been fighting everyone else for decades.  after they get out, though...well, that's all i have to say about that.  the separation process needs overhauled, at the very least, and scrapped and started over if they actually want to make anything better.  hell, even participants in a crusade were treated better than us soldiers upon their return.  when you send people to combat, you are responsible for bringing them all the way back, not just drop them at their bases and give them a medal.  in my opinion, they should have a green card upon arrival at their first duty station, and citizenship upon discharge of an honorable term or completion of a combat tour, posthumously if needed, and applied to immediate family as well.

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(edited)
10 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

We ARE a 'deeply dysfunctional, broken nation'.

We're finally seeing cops being tried for murdering people in custody (or being murdered while being taken into custody).

We just saw how deeply broken the military is and how women are treated within it. 

We just saw 74 million people vote for a criminal, who wanted to be a despot.

We are still seeing the Republican party try to disenfranchise millions of voters, mostly minorities and the poor.

We're seeing the results of disregarding science, dismissing education and pretending that ignorance is 'just fine'. One of those results is the highest death toll from Covid in the world. 

During the pandemic, the rich got richer and the poor got poorer. The amount of wealth gained by the richest people in the past year is appalling. 

Many of these things have long existed, and the true extent of them is just now being revealed. 

The idea of "American Exceptionalism" is one of the most arrogant pieces of nonsense I've ever seen, and yet it seems to be growing. 

You're a real downer Joe.

Its worthwhile to have the highest ideals. If you want to become world champion in 4 way you choose the best three teammates and not your drinking buddies. Yes America is always "#1" and "exceptional" is overdone. I've been frequent here to point out the rankings.

But the US has adults back in charge of the government, you forgot that.

Those police officers are being charged and some incremental reforms are underway.

The press has exposed all the aforementioned warts and treatment awaits.

"Deeply broken military" I'll leave to Bigun as he has that nailed.

Edited by Phil1111

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9 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

The idea of "American Exceptionalism" is one of the most arrogant pieces of nonsense I've ever seen, and yet it seems to be growing. 

And yet, every year millions of people from other countries risk their lives to come here. Of all your bullet points, there is one thing that does make us different. We can make things right. We can change. When we see an injustice; we can fix it. And, we have a constitution that guarantees that freedom of voice. 

"Lost in the chaos of debate is how incredibly powerful and insightful the original document remains, and the fact that in a nation where individual laws can often be thousands of pages and millions of words long, the foundation upon which they rest is a concise compilation of rules for governance that, with all of its amendments, has fewer than 8,000 words and can be easily printed on 15 pages of standard copy paper.

The beauty of the U.S. Constitution is that no one had to pause to celebrate its existence. Thanks to that document, we have the freedom to do so, or not, as we please. We also have the freedom to fight over it, argue about it, change it, revere it, and support it, as we please. If there is one overriding, repetitive theme, it is that the citizens of the United States are empowered by broad personal liberties that are not to be denied by any form of government.

As a nation, we’ve squandered some of those liberties in recent years in a misguided swap for security; we’ve abandoned others out of a lack of personal responsibility. We are often too eager to give up the power given to “the people” by the nation’s Constitution.

“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish the Constitution for the United States of America.”

Those words in the preamble to the Constitution should resonate with all Americans as we navigate the difficult social and political times in which we find ourselves. They should be on our minds when we cast a vote, when we speak out against the rights of others, when we allow our governments to take more power, when we refuse to make our voices heard.

We are the “posterity” that enjoys the “Blessings of Liberty.”

https://www.gainesvilletimes.com/opinion/editorial/opinion-beauty-constitution-it-gives-us-freedom-support-it-argue-over-it-change-it/

Quote

The idea of "American Exceptionalism" is one of the most arrogant pieces of nonsense I've ever seen, and yet it seems to be growing. 

"Every country has exceptionalism, Greece has exceptionalism, Canada has exceptionalism . . ." [Obama]

There's nothing wrong with being patriotic, Brother. And for those of us who've been to to other countries and seen children digging through our trash for their next meal, or other injustices need to remember that our values and morals find this repugnant; rather than a way of life.    

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On 3/9/2021 at 8:56 AM, SkyDekker said:

In the US the immigrants won too. I know you won't take my word for it, since in true American fashion you believe yourself far superior. But, just ask any member of First Nations.

Yes!

Apaches greeted Spaniards with arrows.

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I'm not forgetting that the 'adults' are back in charge.

Also not forgetting that the Rs made gains in the House last November, and still hold a lot of power in the individual states. 
They are trying to use that power to stack the deck in their favor (more than they already have).

While there have been improvements in a lot of areas, and there are areas where the US truly is the 'best in the world', there are a lot a flaws.

We're the biggest 'immigrant magnet' because of the potential we have. But we fall well short of that potential in many areas.

In the video Ryoder posted above, the girl in the audience holds up two signs. One says 'No we're not' and the other says 'But we could be' (paraphrasing, may have the exact words a bit off).

That was very true. That whole speech pretty much echoes my feelings. 

The idea that 'kids digging through the trash for their next meal' is something American values and morals find repugnant isn't quite true. 
How many Rs voted for the bill that would cut child poverty in half?
How many proposals to help the poor were introduced in the previous administration? Or were they too busy cutting taxes on the rich?

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26 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

How many Rs voted for the bill that would cut child poverty in half?

I don't agree with that so called "Tax cut." It is a temporary feel good solution. It's a "refundable" tax credit. The government takes the money from the poor and gives it back to them in monthly installments - just for this year. Hocus pocus. 

What we need is real tax reform that helps those below the poverty line in the long term and not some silly, take your money, here's some back until the end of the year legislation.  

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Is America exceptional? In many ways it is. But right now I’d like to point out that America just came within a handful more representatives and senators of the Republican Party to tossing their whole constitution into the toilet to hand the election to you know who.

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(edited)
59 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

I'm not forgetting that the 'adults' are back in charge.

Also not forgetting that the Rs made gains in the House last November, and still hold a lot of power in the individual states. 
They are trying to use that power to stack the deck in their favor (more than they already have).

While there have been improvements in a lot of areas, and there are areas where the US truly is the 'best in the world', there are a lot a flaws.

We're the biggest 'immigrant magnet' because of the potential we have. But we fall well short of that potential in many areas.

In the video Ryoder posted above, the girl in the audience holds up two signs. One says 'No we're not' and the other says 'But we could be' (paraphrasing, may have the exact words a bit off).

That was very true. That whole speech pretty much echoes my feelings. 

The idea that 'kids digging through the trash for their next meal' is something American values and morals find repugnant isn't quite true. 
How many Rs voted for the bill that would cut child poverty in half?
How many proposals to help the poor were introduced in the previous administration? Or were they too busy cutting taxes on the rich?

Joe, I'm thinking you've missed BIGUN's larger point which I take to be focused on a longer view than the last couple of years. I think all clear thinkers would agree that as a Nation we make many mistakes. However we also do a hell of a lot of good and, more often than not, set a great example. Furthermore we are not all seen as ogres by citizens of other nations. I travel a lot and hang with Europeans most often these day's when I do. Trust me, they have their own challenges and they know it. skydekker, who has managed to travel from Toronto to Vancouver, thinks he has the world view of America wired. He does not. Most people I meet in my travels still admire America and when we somehow shed the stench of the last several years, as we will, they will admire us more. 

Edited by JoeWeber
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30 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Joe, I'm thinking you've missed BIGUN's larger point which I take to be focused on a longer view than the last couple of years. I think all clear thinkers would agree that as a Nation we make many mistakes. However we also do a hell of a lot of good and, more often than not, set a great example. Furthermore we as not all seen as ogres by citizens of other nations. I travel a lot and hang with Europeans most often these day's when I do. Trust me, they have their own challenges and they know it. skydekker, who has managed to travel from Toronto to Vancouver, thinks he has the world view of America wired. He does not. Most people I meet in my travels still admire America and when we somehow shed the stench of the last several years, as we will, they will admire us more. 

What the world needs and wants from America is leadership. The world doesn't need its young men on their own nation building failed states. It doesn't need the US as policeman to the world. Instead leadership through co-coalition building. To face down the dictators, bullies and rogue nations. Russia, China and N. Korea come to mind.

Through the UN, treaties and sanction building. To prod the unwilling and build what needs to be built. As a absolute and last resort use the 'big stick' as Teddy Roosevelt put it.

For itself it needs shrinking income disparity and fair application of law.

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1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

I don't agree with that so called "Tax cut." It is a temporary feel good solution. It's a "refundable" tax credit.

I actually think that's its strength - it's temporary and will disappear when COVID becomes less of an issue.

I am a lot less worried about one-time stimulus payments than long term changes that increase the debt (like permanent tax cuts or permanent new programs.)

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1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

skydekker, who has managed to travel from Toronto to Vancouver, thinks he has the world view of America wired. He does not. Most people I meet in my travels still admire America and when we somehow shed the stench of the last several years, as we will, they will admire us more.

Agreed, in my 28 years in Europe I never met Americans with Canadian flags stitched to their backpacks.

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12 hours ago, billvon said:

For some demographics, the easiest way to elevate oneself is to tear down someone else.  Always has been that way, always will be.  For people like that it's a zero sum game - if you can diminish someone else you are improved by comparison.

Kind of like as a country telling the rest of the world you are better than anybody else? Maybe invade a few countries to enforce your democracy?

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5 hours ago, sfzombie13 said:

i can assure you that the recruiter will use every tool they have to get the soldier enlisted.  no way they forget to tell non-citizens that they can get a green card and citizenship by enlisting.  quotas exist and are hard to fill at some times, and even more when you've been fighting everyone else for decades.  after they get out, though...well, that's all i have to say about that. 

Thank you for making my point.

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2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

it is that the citizens of the United States are empowered by broad personal liberties that are not to be denied by any form of government.

Sure, just as long as they fit within the decency laws. You are ensured the right to have a gun, just not a dildo, or a boobie without clothes over it.

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