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Recon424

USPA .. Are they worth it ??

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>So, lowering the standard was a good idea???

So far it doesn't look like it was a bad idea. Students are not dying due to a lack of testing at JCC's.



In 2008, in response to; "> Without a doubt, the standards of the program could be raised and
> you could implement jump numbers, licenses, hours and yada yada
> requirements – but would that really solve anything?"

Bill wrote:

"I don't think it would solve anything, but it might keep the problem of unqualified instructors from getting worse."

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3154737;search_string=Afficc;#3154737

Has your opinion changed?

Derek V

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topdocker

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But let's be real no one on that board is going to anything to support or even comment for a GM or individual member who contacts them with a violation and they just blow you off . But hey that TI who just hit his one hitter and then grabbed the tandem rig to take up the customer could be comeing to dropzone near you, cause crouch didn't care.



Let me guess, you wanted to get USPA involved in your personal pissing match and they told you they can't pull a rating just because you said you saw a TI using a 1-hitter. If you saw this and you give a shit why didn't you do something, this is very fucking serious but you did nothing and complain that someone else should have?



It is USPA's job to get involved in exactly that situation through the SnTA or RD. USPA took on the role of policing the TI's and does a horrible job at it because no one really knows what to do at the field level or just blatantly looks the other way.

Twenty-five years ago, when tandems were a small, small fraction of the money pie, USPA listened to the members. They had no choice, we were the sole source of income to USPA. Then, they added the Group Membership program and had to serve two masters with competing ideals of how skydiving should be. Lately, the manufacturers (specifically the tandem manufacturers) have heavily influenced USPA. Now they serve three masters and the members are the ones with the least amount of political pull.

And you pretty much do have to be a member of USPA to jump in this country. I don't think there are ten DZ's that are non-Group members in the US. USPA essentially is a monopoly and certainly acts like one.

top

I think you answered your own problem, people look the other way and should not. USPA sees all sorts of he says, she says BS. You can't enforce something at an upper level if there's no proof and I'm sure you know how many pissing matches are out there. You have to at least handle your own problems before getting mad that someone else isn't, that's just lame.

I certainly don't feel controlled by the lifetime membership, rating renewals and bare minimum of continued training I need. I know it's a huge can of worms but God forbid that USPA should agree with the manufacturers that they don't want to get sued by someone under 18 who doesn't have insurance and broke their leg on a landing.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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> I can see your reluctance to specify DZ names, but what are some of the
>safety issue differences that you have seen?

No seatbelts used in aircraft. "You don't need them; they're not going to do shit if we crash."

Exiting over solid cloud decks with new-to-the-DZ jumpers.

On a high wind day, being told by the previous group "get out right on our heels, or else the wind will blow you off course."

Using private pilots as jump pilots, and being on board while those pilots buzzed cars on the freeway to try to entertain a club member going home early.

Not using AAD's for students.

Doing AFF without being rated to do so, and with no real experience doing harness hold jumps. But "it's not rocket science and I have a lot of 4-way experience."

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topdocker

******Do you know how the Ches Judy award works? A DZ awards that without any input from USPA at all. If you'd like USPA staff to conduct research into the background and safety practices of every Ches Judy awardee your dues are going to be a lot higher than $55 a year. The point to the Ches Judy program is to allow DZs to locally recognize jumpers. It is not a nationally organized program. It's like local McDonalds franchises giving out employee of the month awards.

Or USPA could scrap the Ches Judy program, at which point you'd bitch that USPA doesn't do enough to promote safety.



I am well aware of how the award works. And there was no long process needed to vet Douse, he had JUST been fined by the FAA almost half a million dollars.

And my dues would not have to go up, raise the GM program fees.

As for getting rid of the award, an award that means nothing is a waste of time.

Let's get a few of the facts straight.

Dause, not Douse.

The FAA proposed a fine. Nothing has been paid by Mr. Dause except to his attorney.

At the time of his award, he was a member in good standing, and met all the criteria set forth for the award.

top

I know Bill Dause has been the target of much criticism lately due to the double tandem fatality. I jumped at two of his DZs (Pope Valley and Lodi) and have personally seen him ban jumpers who did careless/unsafe things. To brand Bill as a person who does not care at all about safety just isn't accurate.

I gladly pay my USPA dues. They do a lot of good work fighting for DZs rights to exist at airports that receive fed funding. The liability insurance that comes with membership is well worth the fee. Could they do a better job? Sure, but it's not a dysfunctional outfit.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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I've seen most of these at USPA GM DZ's. Or worse.

One has nothing to do with the other.

My issue with USPA is they don't just serve the skydiving members. They serve DZ's as well. When they must choose between the two, jumpers generally lose. USPA gives the impression that they are checking on aircraft maintenance (they are not), and the GM membership means something (it doesn't).

I agree that do some good things, but they cannot serve 2 masters. As long as membership is mandatory (I know you say it isn't, but aside from a handful of DZ's, it is mandatory), USPA does not have to answer to its membership.

1. Eliminate the GM program. Or require the Inspection Program for membership.

2. Eliminate the mandatory membership

3. Eliminate the maintenance reporting system.

4. Return the AFFICC standards to the pre-2001 level.

Derek V

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billvon


No seatbelts used in aircraft.
Exiting over solid cloud decks ...
Using private pilots as jump pilots ...
Doing AFF without being rated to do so...



Similar to Derek's response above, I have known of these violations at GM DZs.

Plus these:
"Night" jumps without lights.
Doing tandem jumps without proper ratings.
Using an airplane many hours past the inspection cycle.

I think what he and I are trying to say is that the GM program does not seem to prevent things like this. We as individual members are not supposed to be doing those things, so why do we think that individual members at a GM DZ will do better?

I personally know of a few non-GM DZs that do better than many GM DZs.

I'm not negating your experiences, it's just that I have not seen a correlation between Group Membership and safety.

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DJL


Let me guess, you wanted to get USPA involved in your personal pissing match and they told you they can't pull a rating just because you said you saw a TI using a 1-hitter. If you saw this and you give a shit why didn't you do something, this is very fucking serious but you did nothing and complain that someone else should have?

I've seen that situation. Going to the DZO was all it took to fix it.

Did this guy consider that?

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JohnMitchell

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Let me guess, you wanted to get USPA involved in your personal pissing match and they told you they can't pull a rating just because you said you saw a TI using a 1-hitter. If you saw this and you give a shit why didn't you do something, this is very fucking serious but you did nothing and complain that someone else should have?

I've seen that situation. Going to the DZO was all it took to fix it.

Did this guy consider that?

I'm with you. What someone does on their off-hours is their business but.....holy fuck, I wouldn't let that guy on the plane.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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Remember when Indiana wanted to regulate skydiving, by charging the DZs to regulate them?

Remember when the FAA said only airplanes can use hangars, nothing else, including as DZ office/packing areas?

Remember when the government wanted to tax skydivers per head on each jump?

Remember when the FAA banned skydiving after many jump plane crashes involving numerous passenger fatalities and injuries and skydiver fatalities under perfectly good parachutes. Oh wait...that didn't happen.

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mjosparky

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The liability insurance that comes with membership is well worth the fee



USPA membership liability insurance is third party insurance. Google "third party insurance".



Correct. It covers damage done by a jumper to someone else's stuff ("someone else" being the 'third party') So when someone screws up and, say, bounces off a car in the parking lot, it's covered.

Or damages crops on an out landing.
Or kicks the dorsal fin on a KA on exit.
Or forgets to pull the seatbelt in on a Helicopter jump and the buckle bounces off the outside and chips/scratches the hell out of the paint (happened recently - airplane paint shop located on the airport had the heli painted and ready to go by next morning).
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Or when you hit a young kid on a demo that you should never have gone on & get sued for $50k.

BTDT; and the insurance saved my bacon.



Isnt demo insurance a separate, additional cost from regular USA membership?

I'm not saying us-a does nothing for its members, I'm saying it try's to serve two masters and when there is a conflict of interest, the individual member ship almost always loses.

Several of my points have not been addressed or countered.

Derek V

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Looking at what the individual member gets and doesn't get, is USPA membership worth $55+/year?

Obviously it is an individual decision.

Most of the points raised in favor of membership are DZ benefits, not individual member benefits.

Personally, what do I get for my $100 (Membership, PRO rating and AFFI rating) per year?

Want to find out if skydivers really think membership is worth the cost? Eliminate mandatory membership.

Derek V

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Want to find out if skydivers really think membership is worth the cost? Eliminate mandatory membership.




Sure, and make taxes voluntary while we're dreaming impossible dreams.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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"The United States Parachute Association (USPA) is a voluntary non-profit membership organization of individuals who enjoy and support the sport of skydiving"

"GROUP MEMBER PLEDGE

Require introductory or regular individual USPA membership of:
1. all licensed U.S. skydivers (a skydiver is considered a student until licensed)
2. non-resident foreign nationals who do not have proof of membership in their national aeroclub"

Hmmm. 'Voluntary' but 'require membership'.

Derek V
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It actually is voluntary on the level of the organization itself. It's really the DZOs that require membership. If you don't want to join or pay you can find a non USPA DZ. Or start one yourself. For some reason almost all DZs think they are better off joining. As a customer of the DZ you are free to take your business elsewhere.

Comparing it to AOPA is not realistic. AOPA does not issue ratings or COPs. Pilots get those services from the FAA. If the FAA were to take over those functions and regulate skydiving then DZs would not need USPA. But you would soon regret that.

Go ahead, open your own DZ and then come back and tell us all about how you don't need USPA.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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It actually is voluntary on the level of the organization itself. It's really the DZOs that require membership. If you don't want to join or pay you can find a non USPA DZ. Or start one yourself. For some reason almost all DZs think they are better off joining. As a customer of the DZ you are free to take your business elsewhere.



That really isn't the question. The question is, "Are they worth it?"

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Comparing it to AOPA is not realistic. AOPA does not issue ratings or COPs. Pilots get those services from the FAA. If the FAA were to take over those functions and regulate skydiving then DZs would not need USPA. But you would soon regret that.



Seems to work for AOPA, the FAA, and AOPA membership. You are saying AOPA does less and does not require membership and seems to attract enough members to survive.

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Go ahead, open your own DZ and then come back and tell us all about how you don't need USPA.



Again, the question isn't is USPA worth it for DZ's. Is it worth it for the individual members?

Derek V

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>Hmmm. 'Voluntary' but 'require membership'.

Right. An amateur radio ("ham") license is entirely voluntary - but it is required if you want to operate in certain bands.



Not the same thing at all.

USPA says they are a voluntary organization, but require USPA GM DZ's to require membership.

Derek V

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Again, the question isn't is USPA worth it for DZ's. Is it worth it for the individual members?




Well, in that case the answer is simple. Yes it is. Or else the membership, who have voting rights, would reject it. I don't pay USPA dues, I'm not a member. But CSPA membership at $85 CAD is a bargain as far as I'm concerned.

Your real beef seems to be that you'd like USPA to have a different focus. That is really a separate issue from whether or not it's worth the price. I agree that they are under the control of a)manufacturers and b) DZOs. The recent adoption of Tom Noonan's wish list of tandem rules as BSRs clearly shows that. But they still also do a reasonably good job for the general membership as well.


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You are saying AOPA does less and does not require membership and seems to attract enough members to survive.




I'm saying that apple trees will not grow from orange seeds. USPA and AOPA have very different functions. And they serve very different groups of people.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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>USPA says they are a voluntary organization, but require USPA GM DZ's to
>require membership.

They are a voluntary organization.

You can join or not.
DZ's can join or not.
You can jump at other places if you like.
You can start your own organization if you like that would carry as much weight as the USPA (if you develop it to the same extent that USPA has done, of course.)
All up to you.

It sounds like your argument is "the DZ's closest to me are USPA DZ's, so it would inconvenience me to have to jump somewhere else." That may well be true. But "inconvenient" does not equal "mandatory."

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