Parachutist letter "removing gray areas" about DZ sexual harrasment

[bigbearfng 9]

I just read the letter in Parachutist criticising USPA for saying anything about a gray area when it comes to harassment on the DZ.  Since there's a lot of other old farts here that remember the past I'd like to hear thoughts on it. When it comes to staff, especially TIs and other instructors then yes, a strict no harassment policy would be best. 

But what about the rest of the jumpers? I remember lingerie jumps, naked jumps and just jokes around the bonfire after too many beers...... 

So would they want a rating holder (pilot) on a lingerie jump disciplined because someone was offended by it? I've seen folk (just other jumpers) on the DZ tell someone to chill out with profanity etc. because there's families/kids around so I think we've mostly self controlled the public behavior that hits inappropriate. 

But does everyone now have to stop and edit what they say to their friends on the DZ  in case someone else might be offended by it? WTF?

Thoughts?

[gowlerk 1,901]

Not everyone here gets Parachutist. Link please.

[bigbearfng 9]

This is the original article in Parachutist. They tried to promote a reasonable stance to cover staff and fun jumpers. The letter basically said that's not near enough.

https://uspa.org/p/rating-corner-the-thin-gray-linedid-you-cross-it

[billvon 2,379]

1 hour ago, bigbearfng said:

But what about the rest of the jumpers? I remember lingerie jumps, naked jumps and just jokes around the bonfire after too many beers...... 

If you end up offending someone of the sort listed in the article (a student, an AFF-I candidate, the parent of a student) that's on you.  Joke around all you like with your friends - but you are responsible for ensuring that you're keeping those inside jokes inside.  And you're also responsible for making sure that all your friends are OK with it, too.

[wmw999 2,114]

7 hours ago, billvon said:

but you are responsible for ensuring that you're keeping those inside jokes inside.  And you're also responsible for making sure that all your friends are OK with it, too.

This, a hundred times this. And the fact that people who disagree with what you think is appropriate look just like people who agree with it means that it's not as easy as "they're a jumper."

I'm from the past; I can be really crude; the biggest criticism of me when I took my JCC was my language. That might be part of why I wasn't ever subject to any concerted approaches. A couple of inappropriate ones, yes; a couple of creepy ones, yes, but I said no and got pissed off. But that's me.

I also kept quiet when I heard the term "darker persuasion," and when I heard negative talk about Oriental folks in the 1970's (except when it was members of my family). I'm not proud of those things, but they're past.

The thing is, the more people there are around, the more likely it is that someone will be offended.  With a greater population in general, there are more people, and with sharing on FB, Instagram, or whever there are more people aware. Such is life. With change, comes more change. If you still jump with a small Cessna club, and don't post anything anywhere, you can probably still do whatever you want to as long as students aren't involved.

Wendy P.

 

[JoeWeber 2,294]

9 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

This, a hundred times this. And the fact that people who disagree with what you think is appropriate look just like people who agree with it means that it's not as easy as "they're a jumper."

I'm from the past; I can be really crude; the biggest criticism of me when I took my JCC was my language. That might be part of why I wasn't ever subject to any concerted approaches. A couple of inappropriate ones, yes; a couple of creepy ones, yes, but I said no and got pissed off. But that's me.

I also kept quiet when I heard the term "darker persuasion," and when I heard negative talk about Oriental folks in the 1970's (except when it was members of my family). I'm not proud of those things, but they're past.

The thing is, the more people there are around, the more likely it is that someone will be offended.  With a greater population in general, there are more people, and with sharing on FB, Instagram, or whever there are more people aware. Such is life. With change, comes more change. If you still jump with a small Cessna club, and don't post anything anywhere, you can probably still do whatever you want to as long as students aren't involved.

Wendy P.

 

I addressed this many years ago by making it crystal clear what sort of behavior and language was unacceptable around students and the public. Then, to make it all easier, we segregated the groups in a linear flow pattern. Spectators and family and friends can all be together in their own comfortable viewing area behind a fenced flight line. They have shade pergola's, picnic tables, groomed grass, access to administration for information, etc. Checked in students can hang with their friends until it's time for their training and jumps at which time they are escorted into the main building and packing area where only staff are working and assembled to greet them and so on. They wait for their jumps there and in their own nice waiting area out front with a shaded porch and access to family and friends separated by a nice fence, checking stuff out and seeing what is going on. Up jumpers have their own clubhouse, camping/RV and parking area where they get to act, speak, joke and yahoo to their hearts undesire like the skydivers we are. No spectators, except adult family, personally supervised kids, or students allowed. When it's time to meet the aircraft the two groups stream to the loading area separately and join there where all of the black death shit ist verboten. A basic form of this is enforced at night and around the fire. It totally works fantastic, students and family are never offended, and we skydivers get to be complete asses on our own turf as God intended. Also, the structure of things is a daily reminder to all that decorum between staff, up jumpers and students is a core policy. 

[wmw999 2,114]

2 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

A basic form of this is enforced at night and around the fire. It totally works fantastic, students and family are never offended, and we skydivers get to be complete asses on our own turf as God intended. Also, the structure of things is a daily reminder to all that decorum between staff, up jumpers and students is a core policy. 

And that's why people say it starts with leadership -- because leadership can set the tone, and they can to some degree set the rules (they can set the rules, but obeying them is to some degree up to the people).

Wendy P.

[timski 80]

speaking from "life experience", most of the organizations I've been involved with started with a male dominated presence.  ARMY, Disc golf, Skydiving, the Fire service... THAT comes with it's own unique challenges... That being said, pretty much all of these long rooted groups have seen change. Things aren't like they used to be. 

The biggest thing I see, the differences with age groups and what WAS the norm or acceptable behavior, now isn't. 

Change is hard, but as we clearly see, NEEDED sometimes. 

The skydiving community is it's own VERY unique sector.  ANYTIME the "general public" comes into play, you act accordingly. 

That being said, WE must recognize our differences AND strive to PROTECT them. In this day and age, professionalism is a must when dealing with the public (in the eye of) AND within our own social fabric. 

It's easy to root out the scum bags or individuals in it for the wrong reasons.  PEER them out. 

[riggerrob 558]

Too many skydivers seem to be caught in a time-warp because they still act in a manner that was fashionable back during the 1980s ... before herpes, AIDS, gay rights, LGBTQ+++++, etc.

POPS can use the excuse that they learned everything they need to know before age 30, but younger jumpers cannot use that to excuse their crude behavior.

Frankly I am embarrassed by some of the things young skydivers say in front of the public (e.g. tandem students). I am also tired of some of their black humor. Yes, black humor has its time and place, but not in front of students about to make their first jump.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

5 hours ago, riggerrob said:

Too many skydivers seem to be caught in a time-warp because they still act in a manner that was fashionable back during the 1980s ... before herpes, AIDS, gay rights, LGBTQ+++++, etc.

POPS can use the excuse that they learned everything they need to know before age 30, but younger jumpers cannot use that to excuse their crude behavior.

Frankly I am embarrassed by some of the things young skydivers say in front of the public (e.g. tandem students). I am also tired of some of their black humor. Yes, black humor has its time and place, but not in front of students about to make their first jump.

So then get out front and be a change agent, Rob. Saying, "Frankly I am embarrassed by some of the things young skydivers say in front of the public (e.g. tandem students). I am also tired of some of their black humor. Yes, black humor has its time and place, but not in front of students about to make their first jump", is saying you are a bystander. Help, please.

[riggerrob 558]

Yes Joe,

When I was the Tandem Examiner at Pitt Meadows, I used to tell younger jumpers to mellow out or "watch your language."

However, the work place bullying got excessive, so I left. I am too old for fist-fights on the job site. ... er ... I have never had a job that paid well enough for fist-fights.

Often workplace bullying sounds like sexual harassment because harassers/bullies don't expect women to complain.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

1 hour ago, riggerrob said:

Yes Joe,

When I was the Tandem Examiner at Pitt Meadows, I used to tell younger jumpers to mellow out or "watch your language."

However, the work place bullying got excessive, so I left. I am too old for fist-fights on the job site. ... er ... I have never had a job that paid well enough for fist-fights.

Often workplace bullying sounds like sexual harassment because harassers/bullies don't expect women to complain.

Brother we are on the same page. Well except for that pond thing you thought I was a dickhead about. Be well, friend. 

[gowlerk 1,901]

10 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Brother we are on the same page. Well except for that pond thing you thought I was a dickhead about. Be well, friend. 

If Rob really thought you were being a dickhead.......most likely you were!

[JoeWeber 2,294]

49 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

If Rob really thought you were being a dickhead.......most likely you were!

Excellent point.

[riggerrob 558]

I have a pretty high tolerance for dickheads.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

2 hours ago, riggerrob said:

I have a pretty high tolerance for dickheads.

It's a damn strange thing that to be an effective DZO, if safety first and profit second are your goals, you need to both be one and have a low tolerance for them. 

[dudeman17 267]

 

[Westerly 61]

Sexual harassment is a criminal offense that needs to be handled at that level. The USPA is not a law enforcement organization. So what exactly, some girl sees a guy wink at her after checking out her butt, so she calls the USPA to complain about sexual harassment and they revoke his license/ rating? That's the issue here. Criminal matters need to be handled in criminal courts where the legal rights of all parties are fairly executed. Not by some arbitrary dude the the USPA who makes a decision based on a few emails about what someone said happened.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Westerly

[billvon 2,379]

5 hours ago, Westerly said:

Sexual harassment is a criminal offense that needs to be handled at that level.

There are wide degrees of sexual harassment that are not criminal but are absolutely not something you want to see at a DZ with students present.  Please don't make me give you examples; I am sure you are smart enough to figure them out on your own.

Quote

The USPA is not a law enforcement organization. So what exactly, some girl sees a guy wink at her after checking out her butt, so she calls the USPA to complain about sexual harassment and they revoke his license/ rating? That's the issue here.

No, it's not the issue at all.  No one is proposing that.

Quote

Criminal matters need to be handled in criminal courts where the legal rights of all parties are fairly executed. Not by some arbitrary dude the the USPA who makes a decision based on a few emails about what someone said happened.

That's like saying that getting stoned and doing tandems isn't something some arbitrary USPA dude decides is bad based on a few emails.  They should go straight to the police; it's a criminal matter!  Nothing to do with USPA.

USPA has a charter to promote safe skydiving, good instruction and responsible/ethical conduct towards the public.  That includes setting standards for behavior.

[Westerly 61]

15 hours ago, billvon said:

There are wide degrees of sexual harassment that are not criminal but are absolutely not something you want to see at a DZ with students present.  Please don't make me give you examples; I am sure you are smart enough to figure them out on your own.

No, it's not the issue at all.  No one is proposing that.

That's like saying that getting stoned and doing tandems isn't something some arbitrary USPA dude decides is bad based on a few emails.  They should go straight to the police; it's a criminal matter!  Nothing to do with USPA.

USPA has a charter to promote safe skydiving, good instruction and responsible/ethical conduct towards the public.  That includes setting standards for behavior.

Getting stoned and doing tandems is a federal offense under FAA regulations and it is a safety issue. Making a slued comment is not a safety issue. The two are not analogous of each other.

[billvon 2,379]

19 minutes ago, Westerly said:

Getting stoned and doing tandems is a federal offense under FAA regulations and it is a safety issue. Making a slued comment is not a safety issue. The two are not analogous of each other.

I didn't say they were.  I said that USPA has a role in preventing both - by setting standards for professionalism.