Instruction discussion split from 2021-01-08 Incident

[CrzIvan 21]

5 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

It's the 'how to get out of trouble when you end up in it' and 'where the edge of trouble is' that is being taught.

Hallelujah.

As to the need for fear/ real experience vs. talks, studies, and even "letting them see the negative outcomes", there's a number of massive plain examples. 

One of them would be the improbably high crash rate that occurred when one very large Asian country experienced rapid economic growth and its dwellers started becoming first-generation car drivers en masse. A big expensive analysis showed that most of them never expected the car crash to be so painful & encumbered with consequences because they knew driving by playing computer games. This is not even an anecdote, the data on this research is publicly available.

Another much sadder one is the historical fact of the widespread public enthusiasm upon declaration of the civil war in another big country. To be compared with the general sentiment upon a few years into the war on its both sides. Repeated multiple times through ages. Same reasons as why "peaceful citizens" can never fathom those in the war zones nor veterans coming home, and don't let me start on some of them who are aggressively pushing their rights or promoting their informed views.

From this angle, the conclusions look straight, one would hope.

[CrzIvan 21]

Separately, since much debate here is centered around "teaching bad behavior", how can it be defined, after all? 
My attempt would be something like "teaching potentially harmful actions while ignoring or disregarding their dangerous consequences"
If so, then the implications for skydiving, where everything is potentially harmful, are obvious, as well. You teach everything with straight connection to the consequences, or you teach nothing. 

[sfzombie13 307]

15 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Sometimes it’s best to learn from someone else’s experience. 
Wendy P. 

not in the context of the comment i was replying to.  take driving a race car, for example.  you can't learn where the limits are until you exceed them.  same thing with the skid pad.  it was fun as hell, and taught me what to do and not to do when skidding out of control, but is another thing that couldn't be learned from someone else.  when i was doing the canopy drills to get my b, i was warned not to let go of the toggles when the canopy stalled and that it was scary.  no amount of preparation could have let me know how scary, and my first instinct was to let them fly up.  fortunately i knew it was coming, but had i not done it on purpose first, i may have been in trouble had i had a canopy stall on accident.

[wolfriverjoe 1,339]

23 hours ago, sfzombie13 said:

you don't know where the limits are until you find them.  you can't find them if you don't push them.

 

20 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Sometimes it’s best to learn from someone else’s experience. 
Wendy P. 

SF Zombie already replied to some of this, but IMHO:

Some of this stuff has to be learned personally. You can't learn it from a book, you can't learn it from a video, you can't learn it from a lecture.

 

OTOH, some of this stuff is fairly advanced. 

You don't take a beginner and try to teach them to apex a curve at the limit of tire adhesion.

You can teach them what skidding feels like, to take away the panic of it. To try to take away some of the incorrect instinctive stuff. Slamming on the brakes in a car, reaching for the ground when landing a canopy, that sort of stuff.