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tbrown

Instruction discussion split from 2021-01-08 Incident

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19 hours ago, nwt said:

I have no idea

Thanks nwt. Let it be noted, it wasn't me who said it.

I could add a few of things, such as 

- stalling the aircraft intentionally and pulling it out of several types of stalls, as well as  other "special situations", is a mandatory, arguably one of the most important parts of the basic private pilot license training; by manually, intentionally re-creating it (which is, again, a required part of the training) the student understands how, why, in which regimes a particular "special situation" occurs (so as he/ she can avoid it), drills in the full range of sensations (the G's, the rotations, the disorientation etc.) and visuals of each one spread in time (so as he/ she can detect it early), and drills in the salvaging reflexes. The analogy can't be clearer than that.
- in my sad experience, I and my teammates had to physically threaten some "heroes" to make them stop doing certain things. Only then they did stop doing these things as long as we were around. I'm not proud of it but see no choice. I don't want to tell what I saw with my own eyes in other cases when "heroes" did not stop.
- one more time: to survive in life threatening situations, one has to learn all scenarios by rote. Nothing else works.
- and others, but I think enough said.

With nwt having rested his case with gracious dignity as quoted above, I want to thank you, brothers dudeman17 and BMAC615. I hope and believe some people have read this and made their own life-saving decisions. 
 

Separately, I want to apologize to everyone who knew and was close to Dave Creek for my having written at such length here in this thread. My deep condolences and may he Rest In Peace.

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Jeez, I go away for a few days and I have all this exciting new stuff to read! A couple thoughts to follow up on my earlier post suggesting carnage videos.

1) As others have pointed out, educating students on the existence and importance of specific failure modes with the use of visual and auditory mnemonics is quite different from having them practice the actions that led to those failures.

2) When I started jumping, I read every incident report I could find. Same with SCUBA. Why? Very simple. I wanted to know all the ways people ended up dead, so that when I found myself in a situation that was shaping up similarly, I would respect its potential to kill me, and then hopefully do something different from the thing they did.

3) On a related note, and per a previous post who referred to educational practices in the military, teaching someone to do something where they can kill themselves or others is fundamentally a different beast than teaching someone tennis or Mandarin (see also Shop Class as Soulcraft, which I love). Of course you want to build only the correct muscle memory and all that - I doubt anyone would disagree. But what's different is that in activities where lives are at stake you also need to build the correct attitude for survival, and part of that is instilling fear, for which graphic images of the consequences are very useful.

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On 2/23/2021 at 8:22 AM, JDBoston said:

educating students on the existence and importance of specific failure modes with the use of visual and auditory mnemonics is quite different from having them practice the actions that led to those failures.

I don't know why this is so hard for some others to comprehend.

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On 2/16/2021 at 7:09 PM, nwt said:

I don't understand

On 2/16/2021 at 8:14 PM, nwt said:

I didn't understand

On 2/16/2021 at 8:14 PM, nwt said:

I don't follow your reasoning here

On 2/16/2021 at 8:14 PM, nwt said:

I've completely misunderstood your idea.

On 2/18/2021 at 8:54 AM, nwt said:

I'm not an education expert

On 2/18/2021 at 9:07 AM, nwt said:

I have no idea

And the cherry on the cake just now,

"I don't know why it is so difficult for some others to comprehend".

Sorry I had to write again. Turns out, the case was not quite closed earlier (regarding which, Merriam-Webster has a good entry on "sarcasm"), therefore it'd be fruitless to point out logical gaps and subject changes again.

But, who did you say were those others with comprehension difficulties? 

The cumulative messages read:

- "Experts say so and so, but I'm not an expert and I'm not defending them, I'm just repeating what they say";

and overall, for short:

- "I have no idea and I have no idea why others have no idea".

What's the urge to say such things at all and in this forum in particular? Please don't tell that you have no idea what I'm saying.

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14 minutes ago, CrzIvan said:

What's the urge to say such things at all and in this forum in particular? Please don't tell that you have no idea what I'm saying.

I honestly don't, and once you started quoting these funny little phrases with all the context stripped to try to change the meaning, I lost any interest in engaging with you. I'm also not a fan of this sort of rhetorical questioning. I'm not going to play your games, however clever you think they are.

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On 2/23/2021 at 4:22 PM, JDBoston said:

educating students on the existence and importance of specific failure modes with the use of visual and auditory mnemonics is quite different from having them practice the actions that led to those failures.

This is a straight and plain wrong statement in at least one case, namely the particular case of pilot training for stalls recovery, as pointed above. No chance I was the only one required repeatedly and gradually to reduce the airspeed or/ and increase the angle of attack and make other erroneous control inputs all the way to the stall(s) and other failures; the requirements to do so are written in the training manuals; and, how else would you make the aircraft stall? Same about switching the ignition off. Or would you rather wait for the real engine failure to catch the lucky moment and train the recovery procedures for all the rest of your life on the way down to the terrain?

Sorry but evidently I need to ask: is it clear that the question above is rhetorical and sarcastic, or should I explain these notions in more details?

Therefore I say your general statement is wrong because it's wrong in at least one, very relevant, and statistically overwhelmingly more weighty instance (as in ratio of pilots to skydivers and their respective life and asset value responsibilities). I don't enjoy pointing this out but find it necessary for life/ death reasons.

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8 hours ago, CrzIvan said:

This is a straight and plain wrong statement in at least one case, namely the particular case of pilot training for stalls recovery, as pointed above. No chance I was the only one required repeatedly and gradually to reduce the airspeed or/ and increase the angle of attack and make other erroneous control inputs all the way to the stall(s) and other failures; the requirements to do so are written in the training manuals; and, how else would you make the aircraft stall? Same about switching the ignition off. Or would you rather wait for the real engine failure to catch the lucky moment and train the recovery procedures for all the rest of your life on the way down to the terrain?

Sorry but evidently I need to ask: is it clear that the question above is rhetorical and sarcastic, or should I explain these notions in more details?

Therefore I say your general statement is wrong because it's wrong in at least one, very relevant, and statistically overwhelmingly more weighty instance (as in ratio of pilots to skydivers and their respective life and asset value responsibilities). I don't enjoy pointing this out but find it necessary for life/ death reasons.

 

I wasn't saying that they HAVE to be different things (teaching people about mistakes vs. having them practice mistakes), I was just saying that they CAN be different, in response to something I perceived earlier on in this thread where someone else seemed to be claiming that showing people carnage videos (those were the visual and auditory mnemonics I was referring to) would equal teaching them bad habits.

I've done stall recovery in parachutes and think that should be part of everyone's training.

If I misinterpreted their post, my bad, but I don't think what I said conflicts with yours. 

Edited by JDBoston

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To try saying it a little differently: I'm all for training recovery from things that can be recovered from. I'm ALSO for training fear by itself, because that little bit of extra pucker factor can keep the base of the accident pyramid smaller, and the really dire situations fewer.

 

Edited by JDBoston

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We teach first solo jump students only the basics and barely show them enough malfunction photos that they can distinguish between "square, slider down and steerable."

Canopy flight is far to complicated a subject to teach in only one lesson. There for, when they transition to faster canopies we teach them additional malfunction drills like cutaway from a wildly spinning case of line-twists.

As they progress to 

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Fear can be a training tool, but it must be used wisely.

Too many early skydiving instructors came from the military where fear is routinely used to prepare soldiers for the ridiculous levels of fear and confusion they will face in combat. Military instructors gradually ramp up fear to further condition young soldiers. They also use fear as a selection process to determine which soldiers can tolerate the highest levels of fear and uncertainty. Young soldiers with low tolerance for fear and uncertainty become cooks and drives, while those with high tolerance become special forces door kickers.

Unfortunately, some military instructors miss-interpret this use of fear - as a teaching tool - as a license to act like bullies or jerks. 

Fear does not work well as a training tool for civilians who have never been in a life-and-death scenario before. They get over-loaded and freeze.

So civilian skydiving instructors need to know when they can apply pressure and when they must back-off to avoid over-loading students. For that reason, I use a minimum of fear when teaching the first solo jump course and emphasis what a good main parachute and good landing approach look like. We can add more levels of complexity (practicing stalls, riser turns, etc.) during later jumps.

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3 hours ago, riggerrob said:

Fear can be a training tool, but it must be used wisely.

Too many early skydiving instructors came from the military where fear is routinely used to prepare soldiers for the ridiculous levels of fear and confusion they will face in combat. Military instructors gradually ramp up fear to further condition young soldiers. They also use fear as a selection process to determine which soldiers can tolerate the highest levels of fear and uncertainty. Young soldiers with low tolerance for fear and uncertainty become cooks and drives, while those with high tolerance become special forces door kickers.

Unfortunately, some military instructors miss-interpret this use of fear - as a teaching tool - as a license to act like bullies or jerks. 

Fear does not work well as a training tool for civilians who have never been in a life-and-death scenario before. They get over-loaded and freeze.

So civilian skydiving instructors need to know when they can apply pressure and when they must back-off to avoid over-loading students. For that reason, I use a minimum of fear when teaching the first solo jump course and emphasis what a good main parachute and good landing approach look like. We can add more levels of complexity (practicing stalls, riser turns, etc.) during later jumps.

Rob, great info here, thanks. Understanding that we wouldn't have a sport for very long if every brand new jumper had to watch faces of death, do you have any thoughts on the amount of fear appropriate in training for specific sub disciplines, when people have some jumps under their belt and aren't going to quit? Or do you judge it on a student by student basis?

 

Edited by JDBoston

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8 hours ago, JDBoston said:

To try saying it a little differently: I'm all for training recovery from things that can be recovered from. I'm ALSO for training fear by itself, because that little bit of extra pucker factor can keep the base of the accident pyramid smaller, and the really dire situations fewer.

Agree & support.

Edited by CrzIvan

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11 hours ago, JDBoston said:

 

I wasn't saying that they HAVE to be different things (teaching people about mistakes vs. having them practice mistakes), I was just saying that they CAN be different, in response to something I perceived earlier on in this thread where someone else seemed to be claiming that showing people carnage videos (those were the visual and auditory mnemonics I was referring to) would equal teaching them bad habits.

I've done stall recovery in parachutes and think that should be part of everyone's training.

If I misinterpreted their post, my bad, but I don't think what I said conflicts with yours. 

There's a huge difference between the idea of 'practicing mistakes' (or 'teaching mistakes') and intentionally putting people into situations they might end up in by mistake and teaching them how to get out of those situations safely.

Stall recovery, either under canopy or in a fixed wing aircraft is a very good example. Spin recovery (used to be required to be a flight instructor, not sure if it still is) is another. 

Understanding how those situations can arise, but more importantly understanding how to get out of them is important.

Another example I have personal experience with is skid/jack knife recovery in a semi truck. 
There's a huge difference between discussing how to get out of a skid or jack knife situation and actually doing it in a full sized truck. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amiStk539Kw

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2 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

There's a huge difference between the idea of 'practicing mistakes' (or 'teaching mistakes') and intentionally putting people into situations they might end up in by mistake and teaching them how to get out of those situations safely.

Stall recovery, either under canopy or in a fixed wing aircraft is a very good example. Spin recovery (used to be required to be a flight instructor, not sure if it still is) is another. 

Understanding how those situations can arise, but more importantly understanding how to get out of them is important.

Another example I have personal experience with is skid/jack knife recovery in a semi truck. 
There's a huge difference between discussing how to get out of a skid or jack knife situation and actually doing it in a full sized truck. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amiStk539Kw

Exactly. And what I would add from what I've heard from the education PhDs is that there's a difference between putting a student in an adverse situation and having the student put himself there through practice of incorrect actions.

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36 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:



Another example I have personal experience with is skid/jack knife recovery in a semi truck. 
There's a huge difference between discussing how to get out of a skid or jack knife situation and actually doing it in a full sized truck. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amiStk539Kw

i went through a skid pad once.  that was a blast.  almost as good as the real thing when i topped a hill once and encountered some ice.  i saw a landair trailer in my mirror and it took a second to realize it was mine. 

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9 minutes ago, sfzombie13 said:

i went through a skid pad once.  that was a blast.  almost as good as the real thing when i topped a hill once and encountered some ice.  i saw a landair trailer in my mirror and it took a second to realize it was mine. 

When I went through the training, there were two reactions:

"We have to take the truck out there and do skids? Oh my god!"

"We get to  take the truck out there and do doughnuts? WOOO HOOOOO!!!!!!"

 (I was in the latter category).

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5 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Another example I have personal experience with is skid/jack knife recovery in a semi truck. 
There's a huge difference between discussing how to get out of a skid or jack knife situation and actually doing it in a full sized truck. 

Same idea in racecar driving and extreme driving training. You have to learn how to put the car into skid and manage it so as, beside safety protocols, it provides an entire new range of driving methods and performance capabilities. When you're keeping the car hair breadth from the skid, that's when you're taking track bends the fastest; for the speed turns/ maneuvers you have to initiate an actual skid and control the car while in it; you activate ABS by precipitous braking and learn to maneuver under it etc. etc. - a broad array of inputs, techniques, and respective results. There's various special equipment and drills to imitate both intentional and unintentional situations, activated either by the student or the instructor or both, depending on the exercise.
And you drill it so much that your knees, elbows, and shoulders are continuously bruised because of the kicks and the G's (right hand side ones if you're doing track), hands scuffed and blistered even with the gloves, letting alone your crippled neck, head and eardrums at the end of the day.

Same principle, same method: you do the "error" and learn to control it.

Another important notion is: these "errors" can be, and often are, easily and imperceptibly entered into by doing nothing conscious, simply through unawareness or/ and lack of attention. That's exactly why one needs to know by rote where the "mistakes" begin so as you can keep your focus on preventing them when such is your current intent.

Edited by CrzIvan
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1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Yes. 
It's a subtle but important distinction that the 'bad behavior' isn't being taught.

It's the 'how to get out of trouble when you end up in it' and 'where the edge of trouble is' that is being taught.

you don't know where the limits are until you find them.  you can't find them if you don't push them.

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Dear JD Boston,

I regulate fear in first-timers by two methods. The first is based upon my previous experience teaching earlier FJC. If an old lesson scared students too much, I back off from that technique.

Then I watch reactions of students in the class room and during other ground training and try to tailor levels of fear to below those where the student can still handle complex tasks under stress. If a student is slightly overwhelmed, I ask them to step to the back of the class and watch a few other students practice the drill. If they are still overwhelmed, I suggest that they come back another day to jump.

In the worst case scenario, I hand that student off the tandem instructors.

Which reminds me of an incident. One day I was puttering around in the loft while Andrew was teaching the IAD FJC. Part way through the morning he marched a Japanese student in and introduced me as "our best tandem instructor." Then we went up for a tandem jump and flailed all over the sky. Even something as simple as the "banana position" was too much for her. She was emotionally overwhelmed even during a tandem!

All that afternoon, I wondered why Andrew hated me so much????? That evening, Andrew explained that while teaching emergency procedures, the girl kept asking "but if I do nothing, will I still be okay?" Clearly, she was not intellectually capable of handling the stresses of a solo jump.

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