Performing Actual Cutaways for Training

[michaelmullins 77]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

Unlax, Mike. You aren't alone in having other businesses that support your DZ habit. My apologies, I'll reconfirm the USPA 200 jump minimum recommendation on flying a camera. But the big bitch I have with your response is that you give this horseshit response: "Love how you know my business and how I evidently "need to put a newbie with a camera in front of a Tandem to keep the doors open". In my post I put myself in that position, not you. If you are sensitive about it that's your problem not mine. I wouldn't do it. You apparently think it's wise. I will tell you straight up that I think putting 100 jump wonders with a camera in the air to film Tandems is irresponsible no matter how many times to date it has worked. But here's the real issue: you are a powerful personality and demand control. Would you recommend that a 182 Dropzone in the middle of nowhere do what you do?

I have never put "100 jump wonders" in the air to film tandems.  I have put qualified individuals in the air to film tandems, regardless of the number of jumps that they have, period, and without incident.  As far as problems with cameramen and tandems, I have not seen a real problem, it seems to be going fairly well, and I can recall only one incident that there was a problem and that was with a cameraman with many hundreds of jumps filming his mother on a tandem.  He decided he would go head down to film the opening, flew into the TI, knocked him unconscious and left him with lingering brain issues, Tandem landed and passenger broke both legs, threw a blow clot, and died on the way to the hospital.  I am not sure what a "182 DZ in the middle of nowhere" has to do with anything, but if they have good judgment in selecting who they have do their video I would agree that they should do what I do, that is, have good judgment.

Any reading of your post would infer that I, and others, were "putting newbies in front of a camera to keep the doors open".  You could have said "I would not put anyone in front of a tandem with a camera with less experience than I thought was necessary for safety", and, that is exactly my position, and it has been a very successful position ever since there have been tandem cameramen.  

I am not sure why you think you should be able to comment on my personality and that I "demand control".  I thought this forum discussion was on tandem cameraman, unsure of why you choose to make personal comments, other than to detract from the issue.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

27 minutes ago, michaelmullins said:

I have never put "100 jump wonders" in the air to film tandems.  I have put qualified individuals in the air to film tandems, regardless of the number of jumps that they have, period, and without incident.  As far as problems with cameramen and tandems, I have not seen a real problem, it seems to be going fairly well, and I can recall only one incident that there was a problem and that was with a cameraman with many hundreds of jumps filming his mother on a tandem.  He decided he would go head down to film the opening, flew into the TI, knocked him unconscious and left him with lingering brain issues, Tandem landed and passenger broke both legs, threw a blow clot, and died on the way to the hospital.  I am not sure what a "182 DZ in the middle of nowhere" has to do with anything, but if they have good judgment in selecting who they have do their video I would agree that they should do what I do, that is, have good judgment.

Any reading of your post would infer that I, and others, were "putting newbies in front of a camera to keep the doors open".  You could have said "I would not put anyone in front of a tandem with a camera with less experience than I thought was necessary for safety", and, that is exactly my position, and it has been a very successful position ever since there have been tandem cameramen.  

I am not sure why you think you should be able to comment on my personality and that I "demand control".  I thought this forum discussion was on tandem cameraman, unsure of why you choose to make personal comments, other than to detract from the issue.

I repeat, putting a 100 jump whatever you'd like to call them on a Tandem is irresponsible. My comment on your personality is no more than an understanding that a tough minded DZO who is an accomplished pilot, USPA National Director, and who has long experience  might get something out of their staff thay the DZO at the odd small, underfunded,  DZ in the middle of nowhere might not. No PA,  just fact. The bigger question,  Mike, is what are you trying to prove? Is it that we don't need a National Organization to make guidelines that you can show are too restrictive?

Edited October 26, 2023 by JoeWeber

[michaelmullins 77]

Just now, JoeWeber said:

I repeat, putting a 100 jump whatever you'd like to call them on a Tandem is irresponsible. My comment on your personality is no more than an understanding that a tough minded DZO who is an accomplished pilot, USPA National Director, and who has long experience  might get something out of their staff than the DZO at the odd small, underfunded,  DZ in the middle of nowhere might not. No PA,  just fact. The bigger question,  Mike, is what are you trying to prove? Is it that we don't need a National Organization to make guidelines that you can show are too restrictive?

Not trying to prove anything, I am saying that "guidelines" are just that, and by definition cannot be too restrictive as they are not compulsory, and they are not compulsory for a reason, and that reason is that is some situations a comparable level of safety can be accomplished by good judgment and experience in training and qualifying cameramen. Such good judgment is not geo-located, has nothing to do with being "odd, small, underfunded", and I believe you are showing disdain, or at the least being patronizing, to the "odd, small, underfunded" and such characteristics, even if true, have nothing to do with good judgment on who is qualified to video a Tandem. Again, tandem videos seem to be going well and whether it be from heeding strictly the guidelines from USPA, or using your own judgment on who is qualified to video tandems, it makes no difference as long as the result is acceptable, which it clearly is on any statistical level.

 

[JoeWeber 2,294]

21 minutes ago, michaelmullins said:

Not trying to prove anything, I am saying that "guidelines" are just that, and by definition cannot be too restrictive as they are not compulsory, and they are not compulsory for a reason, and that reason is that is some situations a comparable level of safety can be accomplished by good judgment and experience in training and qualifying cameramen. Such good judgment is not geo-located, has nothing to do with being "odd, small, underfunded", and I believe you are showing disdain, or at the least being patronizing, to the "odd, small, underfunded" and such characteristics, even if true, have nothing to do with good judgment on who is qualified to video a Tandem. Again, tandem videos seem to be going well and whether it be from heeding strictly the guidelines from USPA, or using your own judgment on who is qualified to video tandems, it makes no difference as long as the result is acceptable, which it clearly is on any statistical level.

 

Your DZ, your call. While I would never dumb down my operation to USPA standards, I am still a fan of the structure USPA puts up for we operators. I will say that if you are not willing to meet those basic standards for any business reason the last thing you should be doing is representing the organization as a National Director. And before you cork calling that out as a PA please note that I have said the same thing to the face of others in your position.

[michaelmullins 77]

23 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Your DZ, your call. While I would never dumb down my operation to USPA standards, I am still a fan of the structure USPA puts up for we operators. I will say that if you are not willing to meet those basic standards for any business reason the last thing you should be doing is representing the organization as a National Director. And before you cork calling that out as a PA please note that I have said the same thing to the face of others in your position.

USPA has requirements that are written in our BSRs that we expect our members to follow, and these are our "basic standards", and I do follow them.  We also have recommendations, these recommendations do not fit everyone, or every situation, and we allow our members to use their own best judgment.  Please feel free, obviously, to use those recommendations as your personal "basic standards".

 If you also feel that a USPA recommendation should  become a BSR then please feel free to put it on the Safety & Training agenda for the next meeting by sending an email to Michael Wadkins, Chair of the S&T Committee, and it will be discussed at the next meeting.  You can find his address on the USPA website.  I know of no case where a member has not been allowed to put an item on the agenda.  You can even come to the meeting and address the Committee, and you can address the full Board of Directors if you choose.  

If you wish to put forth a minimum number of jumps, or other requirements, for a tandem videographer BSR,  then I would suggest that you provide statistics to show that the current system is flawed and is causing problems, such as injuries, fatalities, or any incidents. 

 In my 22 years on the board and on the Safety & Training Committee, I cannot recall any significant problems with the status quo in regards to tandem videographers. 

[JoeWeber 2,294]

24 minutes ago, michaelmullins said:

USPA has requirements that are written in our BSRs that we expect our members to follow, and these are our "basic standards", and I do follow them.  We also have recommendations, these recommendations do not fit everyone, or every situation, and we allow our members to use their own best judgment.  Please feel free, obviously, to use those recommendations as your personal "basic standards".

 If you also feel that a USPA recommendation should  become a BSR then please feel free to put it on the Safety & Training agenda for the next meeting by sending an email to Michael Wadkins, Chair of the S&T Committee, and it will be discussed at the next meeting.  You can find his address on the USPA website.  I know of no case where a member has not been allowed to put an item on the agenda.  You can even come to the meeting and address the Committee, and you can address the full Board of Directors if you choose.  

If you wish to put forth a minimum number of jumps, or other requirements, for a tandem videographer BSR,  then I would suggest that you provide statistics to show that the current system is flawed and is causing problems, such as injuries, fatalities, or any incidents. 

 In my 22 years on the board and on the Safety & Training Committee, I cannot recall any significant problems with the status quo in regards to tandem videographers. 

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Thanks for the replies.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Mods,

I suggest that this thread be locked down.  Nothing new in the last few days; just the same old crap back & forth between two people with a difference of opinion, no one else.

Jerry Baumchen

[michaelmullins 77]

6 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Mods,

I suggest that this thread be locked down.  Nothing new in the last few days; just the same old crap back & forth between two people with a difference of opinion, no one else.

Jerry Baumchen

I agree!