Performing Actual Cutaways for Training

[nwt 131]

21 minutes ago, riggerrob said:

We only expect reserves to last about 20 years, 25 deployments and 40 repacks. After that they need a factory inspection before returning to service. Those standards were written by Performance Designs almost 30 years ago.

25 deployments, check. 40 repacks, check. Do you have a reference for 20 years?

[riggerrob 558]

1 minute ago, nwt said:

25 deployments, check. 40 repacks, check. Do you have a reference for 20 years?

Retiring parachutes after 20 years of service is the law in some European countries.

[nwt 131]

1 minute ago, riggerrob said:

Retiring parachutes after 20 years of service is the law in some European countries.

so?

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

2 hours ago, riggerrob said:

That was my sarcastic opinion of round reserves built during the acid-mesh-era of the 1980s. All that tensile-testing and bromcreasol green testing were only short term measures to get skydivers back in the air ... IOW ... not ground an entire sport.

As soon as the acid-mesh problem became known, busy skydivers traded their round reserves for square reserves and sales of round reserves plummeted to the point that Square One refused to sell new round reserves by the mid-1990s.

During the 1980s, plenty of manufacturers introduced square reserves mad of F-111 fabric but never intended to be loaded more than 1 pound per square foot.

Circa 1990, Performance Designs introduced the first reserves designed to be loaded more than 1:1. Most subsequent designs - from other manufacturers - can be safely loaded more than 1:1 provided the user has plenty of experience on similarly-loaded mains.

Hi Rob,

Re:  provided the user has plenty of experience on similarly-loaded mains.

That should read:  provided the user has plenty of experience on similarly-loaded mains and is not unconscious.

Jerry Baumchen 

 

[fcajump 153]

On 2/21/2021 at 9:12 AM, pchapman said:

Yeah not very practical. It just gets complex.   (Just like this reply did for me...)

But if you want to actually cut away from a parachute, then you need a 3rd canopy, a reserve, on the system. You can have the reserve to test in its proper place on your back -- which makes putting a real reserve on your belly more complex, especially to have it fully legal. Or you could have the reserve to test on you belly, which keeps your 'last reserve' in your rig as normal, but then the deployment for the test canopy won't be like a real reserve.

Either way, having 3 canopies makes the gear and handles and procedures and crap that your wearing more complex and less suited to a newbie. Maybe more dangerous than a real cutaway after a mal!

All in all, it gets complex. So in the sport it is considered reasonable to just spend one's time practicing on the ground. Hanging harnesses are good, handle checks on all jumps are good. And you don't buy a reserve that is way smaller than what you are used to jumping as a main.

#1 PChapman has it right.

BUT,,,  keep asking this question, studying, learning, and talking with your rigger (especially if (s)he has experience with it...)

I was right there with you when I started jumping, I was asking this exact same question.  At this point (30 years later) have >12 intentional cutaways in addition to 3 real reserve rides.

From my experience with both real and planned, I will echo some critical points:
   - can you, yes*  (*start with PChapman's info and then seek out professional help)
   - any system setup to do so safely is by definition more complex and I would NOT hand it to a newer jumper (thinking 'C or D' license minimum)  It DOES give you more chances to F-up and get hurt.
   - does it give you additional feel for what a cutaway is like and confidence? oh-yea... YES!!
   - does it tell you what an actual emergency is like? oh-H3LL no...

For me, the journey was worth it, and I'm looking for more options down this road, but PLEASE proceed with great care and caution.

JW

PS - this is an unusual enough jump, you'll need to be prepared for several things beyond just getting the rig put together:
   - practice/practice/practice... know by feel each handle and the pull order for every possible scenario.  If the rig design permits it, make a "normal" jump or two with the gear before the intentional.  (I've seen designs that require the first canopy to be deployed/chopped (or landed) before the real main can be deployed.  Mine allows the dummy canopy to be left undeployed.
   - who is going to gear check your one-off gear?  prepare to train your DZ rigger/S&TA on how to pin-check your gear.
   - is the S&TA and DZO going to allow you to use it at their DZ?
   - what are the DZ procedures (if any) for doing an intentional (I literally wrote the manual for my local DZ - wonder if they can still find it? ;-) ).
   - make sure Manifest and the Pilot know what you're doing, good idea for manifest to announce it to those on the ground (some like to watch and it will keep other's from freaking)
   - be prepared for someone off DZ to call 911 on you (I've been met by the ambulance on one occasion)... another reason to make sure manifest knows before you go.

 

[tstar 10]

Yeah... I'm certainly light years away from attempting this! I just got my A last week!

Thank you for all the information and advice!!!

Tim

[ChrisBD 0]

On 2/21/2021 at 4:24 AM, tstar said:

First, I am new/untrained and I am not waiting very well for the local DZs to open up again so I can start training.

Sooo  Here’s a crazy idea… Perhaps because I’m ex military but I want to perform actual cutaways and reserve rides at least annually if not right before the reserve is due a re-pack. I want to know what it feels like, what to expect and how the reserve canopy flies differently then the main.

Stupid idea??  What am I missing??

Tim

Not a stupid idea at all.

This used to be a requirement. As was an actual water jump, into the water.

 

The real question is did this requirement increase safety and make better jumpers. And why was this practice stopped?

Many proponents of this are adamant that it made better safer jumpers.

[wmw999 2,114]

I don’t remember actual cutaways ever being required for a license, going back to the mid-1970’s, but it might have been before an actual water jump was required under most circumstances (I think there were arrangements that could be made at desert-area DZ’s, because a swimming pool is hard to hit).

Wendy P. 

[obelixtim 100]

14 hours ago, ChrisBD said:

Not a stupid idea at all.

This used to be a requirement. As was an actual water jump, into the water.

 

The real question is did this requirement increase safety and make better jumpers. And why was this practice stopped?

Many proponents of this are adamant that it made better safer jumpers.

Debateable whether it made you better or safer, but it does give you a different perspective to put in your experience bucket, not only from the jump itself, but with the preparation and planning that goes into it, and the decision making process involved in actually pulling the handles. So from that perspective, having that in your experience bank is a good thing.  

You may be asked to pass on advice in the future as well, all us old dogs are moving to the great DZ in the sky, so someone needs to pass ideas on to the next generation.  

I've done several intentionals on display jumps, as well as a couple of cutaways for real, and no matter how much practice on the ground you do, nothing replicates the moment of the real thing. Used to be a requirement of our old D licence to do a cutaway if you hadn't experienced the real thing. Back in the day it wasn't common to get to D licence level without at least one mal. For me it was jump #6. 

But its always important to remember, that anytime you put yourself in a different situation like this, your risk level is increased. That is why it is important to talk to the right people, get the right gear, and plan it properly. I wouldn't induce spins or anything unusual to make it more "real". It could turn to custard pretty damn quick. I jumped several torn up canopies to see how they behaved, but I can't say I learned anything special, because they were just one offs and behaved differently. I gave myself extra altitude for these jumps, so I was back at normal activation altitudes for normal deployments. 

I wouldn't worry too much about it, better just to keep current, and practise your EPs regularly. When you really need them, they should be ingrained and automatic. The most important thing in a stress situation, is to make a decision, and carry it out immediately. You'll find when it turns to shit in the air, its pretty easy to carry out the EP drills. 

He who hesitates is lost.....    

[mikeat10500 9]

Although I consider myself an expert in E.P., I am also 20 years past my best before date, so I want someone current to do the talking. I have a bit of an issue with this video once posted on the CRW forum and no one mad any comment.

The younger red hot chilly pepper dude did not even look at his reserve handle...ever!!! He attempted to hang on to his main while chopping it and could not pull the cutaway handle with one hand. Good thing! The RSL worked as designed. Both handles are the same color. To me it looks as if his original training was lacking and he never fixed that problem before he moved on to more advanced activities.

[obelixtim 100]

On 10/19/2023 at 9:11 AM, mikeat10500 said:

Although I consider myself an expert in E.P., I am also 20 years past my best before date, so I want someone current to do the talking. I have a bit of an issue with this video once posted on the CRW forum and no one mad any comment.

The younger red hot chilly pepper dude did not even look at his reserve handle...ever!!! He attempted to hang on to his main while chopping it and could not pull the cutaway handle with one hand. Good thing! The RSL worked as designed. Both handles are the same color. To me it looks as if his original training was lacking and he never fixed that problem before he moved on to more advanced activities.

These two should totally get some proper training in CRW, and EPs in a wrap situation. Didn't see any evidence of a hook knife to clear those hung up lines, and both of them dicked around far too long. Bottom guy chopping first, left his mate to be properly wrapped. lucky not to be. Having a rsl hooked up is a very bad idea when doing CRW. Seems to me these two really didn't have much idea of what they were doing.

[MrBrant 0]

42 minutes ago, obelixtim said:

 Didn't see any evidence of a hook knife to clear those hung up lines

I actually laughed out loud when seeing what that line was hung up on. 

Then cringed at the cutaway without clearing it first....

 

[obelixtim 100]

23 hours ago, MrBrant said:

I actually laughed out loud when seeing what that line was hung up on. 

Then cringed at the cutaway without clearing it first....

 

OK fair cop. Didn't notice it there, but I was looking for it somewhere else on his harness. He was obviously not even thinking about it. Full panic mode, when you have to be cool headed and clear thinking in those moments.  This guy, in fact both of them, could be called DGITs.

[chuckakers 369]

On 2/21/2021 at 2:42 PM, nwt said:

I don't think it's legally required, but it's definitely a good practice.

FAR 105.3 - definitions

"Reserve parachute means an approved
parachute worn for emergency use to
be activated only upon failure of the
main parachute or in any other emergency
where use of the main parachute
is impractical or use of the main para-
chute would increase risk."

Simply put, a jumper must be equipped with a certificated reserve parachute that they only intend to use for emergency purposes.

 

[michaelmullins 77]

I do think it is a good idea to practice a cutaway as a cutaway can be disorienting due to the zero G involved as skydivers do not routinely experience zero g on normal skydives from an aircraft moving horizontal in flight at over about 40 mph.

To experience the actual zero g of a cutaway, I have designed, and it has been used many times, an interface that allows a solo jumper to attach themselves, with complete rig, to a tandem.  The tandem pair can exit the aircraft, open, and the solo jumper can cutaway from the tandem with a pull of a handle, thus simulating the feeling of a cutaway.  Or, if you wish to do something unusual, the solo jumper can cutaway from the tandem in freefall and then make a 2 way with the tandem pilot.  

On one occasion, we had a static line student come to our DZ, we don't do static line, so we attached them, with rig, to a tandem pilot, they exited at 14,500', tandem pilot opened at 6,000', then cutaway the student, with static line attached to the tandem.  Student had a perfect opening, fell about 200' below the tandem.  Before releasing the student, TI was able to point out where they were, where the DZ was, the landing pattern, and have the student get in an arch with feet tucked up.  Worked great.

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by michaelmullins
Correction

[JoeWeber 2,294]

2 hours ago, michaelmullins said:

On one occasion, we had a static line student come to our DZ, we don't do static line, so we attached them, with rig, to a tandem pilot, they exited at 14,500', tandem pilot opened at 6,000', then cutaway the student, with static line attached to the tandem.  Student had a perfect opening, fell about 200' below the tandem.  Before releasing the student, TI was able to point out where they were, where the DZ was, the landing pattern, and have the student get in an arch with feet tucked up.  Worked great.

I'm surprised this didn't catch on.

[wmw999 2,114]

8 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I'm surprised this didn't catch on.

Me too; frankly it sounds like a great transition

Wendy P. 

[JoeWeber 2,294]

1 hour ago, wmw999 said:

Me too; frankly it sounds like a great transition

Wendy P. 

Doe the student do their own hand cam? 

[michaelmullins 77]

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

I'm surprised this didn't catch on.

 

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

Doe the student do their own hand cam? 

We have done quite a few of these, only one static line.  Instead of static line, it could also be done IAD just as well.  We don't do handycam at my DZ, only outside video.  We grow our own staff, video is where they start, if we did handycam there would be no pathway forward for those that did not have the money to readily get the required jumps in for TI or AFFI.  All our TI were video at one point, some are still multi-discipline doing video, tandem, and AFF.  We pay a $2.00 per jump override for every rating that you have in addition to the first rating.

 

[JoeWeber 2,294]

4 minutes ago, michaelmullins said:

 

We have done quite a few of these, only one static line.  Instead of static line, it could also be done IAD just as well.  We don't do handycam at my DZ, only outside video.  We grow our own staff, video is where they start, if we did handycam there would be no pathway forward for those that did not have the money to readily get the required jumps in for TI or AFFI.  All our TI were video at one point, some are still multi-discipline doing video, tandem, and AFF.  We pay a $2.00 per jump override for every rating that you have in addition to the first rating.

 

How many jumps experience with a helmet mounted camera before they can practice filming Tandems?

[michaelmullins 77]

23 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

How many jumps experience with a helmet mounted camera before they can practice filming Tandems?

We base it on their individual ability, not on a fixed number of jumps.  Some cannot do it adequately or safely with 500 jumps, others can do it well at 100 jumps.  We have been doing it this way for 40 years and have never had an incident caused by a videographer.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

6 minutes ago, michaelmullins said:

We base it on their individual ability, not on a fixed number of jumps.  Some cannot do it adequately or safely with 500 jumps, others can do it well at 100 jumps.  We have been doing it this way for 40 years and have never had an incident caused by a videographer.

So you're not a big fan of USPA recommendations, fair enough. Personally, if I needed to put a newbie with a camera in front of a Tandem to keep the doors open, regardless of the BSR's, I would take down the sign. But then I'm a safety outlier I'm beginning to see.

[michaelmullins 77]

4 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

So you're not a big fan of USPA recommendations, fair enough. Personally, if I needed to put a newbie with a camera in front of a Tandem to keep the doors open, regardless of the BSR's, I would take down the sign. But then I'm a safety outlier I'm beginning to see.

I am a fan of USPA recommendations, and that is just what they are, recommendations.  Not sure how you slipped a BSR in here as there are no camera BSRs.  Love how you know my business and how I evidently "need to put a newbie with a camera in front of a Tandem to keep the doors open", nothing could be farther from the truth, I do not need my skydiving business, I could close the doors tomorrow and be doing just fine, I do it because I like it , I like to see the results of our team at work,  and I like seeing skydivers growi from students to licensed to rated. 

[JoeWeber 2,294]

41 minutes ago, michaelmullins said:

I am a fan of USPA recommendations, and that is just what they are, recommendations.  Not sure how you slipped a BSR in here as there are no camera BSRs.  Love how you know my business and how I evidently "need to put a newbie with a camera in front of a Tandem to keep the doors open", nothing could be farther from the truth, I do not need my skydiving business, I could close the doors tomorrow and be doing just fine, I do it because I like it , I like to see the results of our team at work,  and I like seeing skydivers growi from students to licensed to rated. 

Unlax, Mike. You aren't alone in having other businesses that support your DZ habit. My apologies, I'll reconfirm the USPA 200 jump minimum recommendation on flying a camera. But the big bitch I have with your response is that you give this horseshit response: "Love how you know my business and how I evidently "need to put a newbie with a camera in front of a Tandem to keep the doors open". In my post I put myself in that position, not you. If you are sensitive about it that's your problem not mine. I wouldn't do it. You apparently think it's wise. I will tell you straight up that I think putting 100 jump wonders with a camera in the air to film Tandems is irresponsible no matter how many times to date it has worked. But here's the real issue: you are a powerful personality and demand control. Would you recommend that a 182 Dropzone in the middle of nowhere do what you do?

[mikeat10500 9]

On 10/23/2023 at 9:08 PM, MrBrant said:

I actually laughed out loud when seeing what that line was hung up on. 

Then cringed at the cutaway without clearing it first....

 

Yo dogs
take a look at me
Go Pro
as I CReW my canopy

Too hot
smoke'n like a Rasta
don't look now
we just over cooked the pasta

Hook knife
may come in handy
this time
it snagged a sketchy Andy

Chop chop
and we get-a-way clean
with the HD video
best you ever seen

Full stop
'cause we don't got the hunger
to unite
our reserves for the thunder

It's a
matter of ability
no pilot chutes
and rock like stability

Next time
we try to get together
base pin
we fly it to the letter
so smooth
it flows like a milkshake
watch us now and the formations we make