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brenthutch

Electric cars banned from parking garages

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2 hours ago, olofscience said:

All Ford cars to be sold in Europe to be electric by 2030.

Poor brent. We'll probably hit 50% electric sales much sooner than expected.

2010: "You'll never see more than a percent of cars being EV's!  They have no range.  They are slow.  There are no batteries.  It's a pipe dream."

2020: "Three percent - big deal.  That means most cars are still gas cars, like they will always be."

2025: "So 16% of new cars are electric.  That's less than ONE-FIFTH!  They are toys for rich out of touch liberals."

2029: "Oh like 62% of NEW cars is a big deal.  That means most cars STILL ON THE ROAD are gas powered cars."

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54 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Brother, 30 years ago, we were jumping F-111 canopies and many still had round reserves. Innovation is about change. It takes time and money. Once innovation takes hold and the market begins to lean that way (as with any of the "ages" bronze, industrial, etc.), there is an acceleration right after the early adopters and the change becomes a constant.

I'm not sure why you are so deeply resistant to EV's or AGW, but your unwillingness to embrace the future of clean technologies is somewhat disconcerting. 

I agree about innovation.  When I made my first jump in Airborne School (coming up on 40 years ago) we were still using the “dial-a-death” harnesses in tower week.  I jumped T10s, -1Bs, and finally-1Cs.  28 years ago my first civilian jumps were static line, my first skydives were with rip-cords, F111 mains and round reserves.  I witnessed an explosion of innovation for about ten years, but then things slowed down.  Twenty years ago I was jumping a 98sqf zero p cross braced spectra lined rocket ship not much different than today’s offerings.  I have not seen the same pace of development in the last twenty years as I did in my first 10.  As technology matures the pace development slows as evidenced by the iPhone’s battery storage improvements.  I have no problem with people investing their money in new technology, that is what venture capital is for.  I have a big problem when the government does it with my money.  We gave Fisker millions, they went bankrupt and some of the money wound up in the pockets of Joe Biden’s sons.  Biden’s climate plan and EV boondoggle feels like 2012 all over again.

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2 hours ago, brenthutch said:

I agree about innovation.  When I made my first jump in Airborne School (coming up on 40 years ago) we were still using the “dial-a-death” harnesses in tower week.  I jumped T10s, -1Bs, and finally-1Cs.  28 years ago my first civilian jumps were static line, my first skydives were with rip-cords, F111 mains and round reserves.  I witnessed an explosion of innovation for about ten years, but then things slowed down.  Twenty years ago I was jumping a 98sqf zero p cross braced spectra lined rocket ship not much different than today’s offerings.  I have not seen the same pace of development in the last twenty years as I did in my first 10.  As technology matures the pace development slows as evidenced by the iPhone’s battery storage improvements.  I have no problem with people investing their money in new technology, that is what venture capital is for.  I have a big problem when the government does it with my money.  We gave Fisker millions, they went bankrupt and some of the money wound up in the pockets of Joe Biden’s sons.  Biden’s climate plan and EV boondoggle feels like 2012 all over again.

Hi Brent,

Re:   I have a big problem when the government does it with my money.

If the feds ( Eisenhower's admin ) had funded the interstate system, you would be driving cars/trucks with 1940's technology.  

It was about 1947, we were on US 99, going north to visit my grandmother.  My dad was driving our 1937 Chevy and he said to us, 'Look, we are going a mile a minute.'  While it was only momentary, it was a big deal in those days. 

I have never forgotten that moment.

Jerry Baumchen

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2 hours ago, brenthutch said:

my first jump in Airborne School (coming up on 40 years ago) we were still using the “dial-a-death” harnesses in tower week.

<thread drift> I graduated jump school in May 1980 - HONOR GRADUATE!!! Iron Mike is in the hero bookcase. </end thread drift>

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6 hours ago, brenthutch said:

“Fire hazard: German town bans e-cars from parking garage

The fire risks posed by electric cars are well known, so much so that the Bavarian town of Kulmbach has just banned electric and hybrid vehicles from parking inside parking garages because their batteries are so difficult to extinguish when fire starts.

According to German online weekly FOCUS here, “This was decided by the city in consultation with the fire brigade for the underground car park under Eku-Platz, as first reported by the portal InFranken.de.”

Battery fires “dramatic”, too difficult to extinguish

In the event of an electric or hybrid vehicle battery fire, extinguishing it would take too long and the heat generated could lead to extensive structural damage to the parking garage.

FOCUS reports: “A steel floor can withstand heat for a certain time, but if too much heat is applied, the concrete will burst and the iron will melt. Then there would be a danger of collapse.“

Hi Brent,

And, a different German perspective:  

Seven years ago, Mathias Döpfner was at a ceremony celebrating Tesla founder Elon Musk. Döpfner, the head of German media company Axel Springer, was seated next to a CEO of one of Germany's biggest carmakers, and he turned to him and asked, "Isn't this guy dangerous for you?"

As he later recounted, the CEO shook his head. "These guys in Silicon Valley, they have no clue about engineering, about building really beautiful and great cars," the CEO told him. "So we don't have to worry."

What Will Tesla's New German Gigafactory Mean For Germany's Auto Industry? : NPR

Jerry Baumchen

 

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15 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Brent,

Re:   I have a big problem when the government does it with my money.

If the feds ( Eisenhower's admin ) had funded the interstate system, you would be driving cars/trucks with 1940's technology.  

It was about 1947, we were on US 99, going north to visit my grandmother.  My dad was driving our 1937 Chevy and he said to us, 'Look, we are going a mile a minute.'  While it was only momentary, it was a big deal in those days. 

I have never forgotten that moment.

Jerry Baumchen

Hi Jerry,

What did we get from the $1.2 billion the Bush administration spent on hydrogen?  What did we get for the billions the Obama administration spent on Fisker, Solindra, and others? Where is my geothermal electricity?  Why does “the worlds largest thermal solar power station”  dump more than 50,000 tons of CO2 into the atmosphere every year? Seems like we got a lot more for our money back in the ‘50s.  Let’s let venture capital do the dice rolling with their money, the government should stick to the basics.

 

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6 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Hi Jerry,

What did we get from the $1.2 billion the Bush administration spent on hydrogen?  What did we get for the billions the Obama administration spent on Fisker, Solindra, and others? Where is my geothermal electricity?  Why does “the worlds largest thermal solar power station”  dump more than 50,000 tons of CO2 into the atmosphere every year? Seems like we got a lot more for our money back in the ‘50s.  Let’s let venture capital do the dice rolling with their money, the government should stick to the basics.

 

Good that you have a pension and a wife that has a job because you do not understand business at all. I accept that a lot of what I do will yield jack because I know that if I stay at it and don't go woe is me I'll hit some homers. You live in the past Brent. All of that past is prologue and those who don't remember history jazz is for armchair quarterbacks. Screw that noise, look for the next thing if you want success. If you dare.

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23 hours ago, brenthutch said:

“Fire hazard: German town bans e-cars from parking garage

The fire risks posed by electric cars are well known, so much so that the Bavarian town of Kulmbach has just banned electric and hybrid vehicles from parking inside parking garages because their batteries are so difficult to extinguish when fire starts.

According to German online weekly FOCUS here, “This was decided by the city in consultation with the fire brigade for the underground car park under Eku-Platz, as first reported by the portal InFranken.de.”

Battery fires “dramatic”, too difficult to extinguish

In the event of an electric or hybrid vehicle battery fire, extinguishing it would take too long and the heat generated could lead to extensive structural damage to the parking garage.

FOCUS reports: “A steel floor can withstand heat for a certain time, but if too much heat is applied, the concrete will burst and the iron will melt. Then there would be a danger of collapse.“

Sound judgement if you ask THIS FIREFIGHTER...  So what is Brent's under lying reason for posting such blatant obviousness???  Yeah I get it, it's my job to know these things.  IF you drive an electric vehicle, it's your job to know as well! 

FYI, the biggest problem with extinguishment is the amount of water needed to continuously cool the batteries... (and knowing where to direct the stream!). Also prone to reignite until properly dealt with...Good to know if your driving the tow truck and where to drop it...    

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54 minutes ago, timski said:

Sound judgement if you ask THIS FIREFIGHTER...  So what is Brent's under lying reason for posting such blatant obviousness???  Yeah I get it, it's my job to know these things.  IF you drive an electric vehicle, it's your job to know as well! 

FYI, the biggest problem with extinguishment is the amount of water needed to continuously cool the batteries... (and knowing where to direct the stream!). Also prone to reignite until properly dealt with...Good to know if your driving the tow truck and where to drop it...    

Fire risk from EVs is a real and fairly well studied thing. It has been judged overall to be just slightly less risky than the risk from gasoline powered models. It will not become a limiting factor in their adoption and the firefighting community will have to deal with the difference in how they must be fought.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicle_fire_incidents

Edited by gowlerk

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On 2/17/2021 at 8:31 AM, olofscience said:

Wow, that changes everything! Small numbers never turn into big numbers, right?

Nope, numbers never change. When they do, it's direct evidence of fraud. See: presidential vote counting, pandemic stats, etc.

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On 2/17/2021 at 12:45 PM, billvon said:

2010: "You'll never see more than a percent of cars being EV's!  They have no range.  They are slow.  There are no batteries.  It's a pipe dream."

2020: "Three percent - big deal.  That means most cars are still gas cars, like they will always be."

2025: "So 16% of new cars are electric.  That's less than ONE-FIFTH!  They are toys for rich out of touch liberals."

2029: "Oh like 62% of NEW cars is a big deal.  That means most cars STILL ON THE ROAD are gas powered cars."

Bill, is that fancy Mars lander using reliable fossil fuels? I'm assuming yes, you know, out of an abundance of caution.

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12 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Bill, is that fancy Mars lander using reliable fossil fuels? I'm assuming yes, you know, out of an abundance of caution.

I know you aren’t asking me but perseverance runs on plutonium, manufactured here in the good ol’ USA. Just watched EDL on live stream a short while ago.

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23 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Bill, is that fancy Mars lander using reliable fossil fuels? I'm assuming yes, you know, out of an abundance of caution.

Pretty sure they are using hydrazine, which is a chemical made from synthetic ingredients - ammonia, sodium hypochlorite (bleach) and butanol.  It doesn't need an oxidizer and is very stable, which is an advantage for a lander that's going to be in flight for years.

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34 minutes ago, billvon said:

Pretty sure they are using hydrazine, which is a chemical made from synthetic ingredients - ammonia, sodium hypochlorite (bleach) and butanol.  It doesn't need an oxidizer and is very stable, which is an advantage for a lander that's going to be in flight for years.

I’m sure you’re correct about what they used for in flight maneuvering of the spacecraft. Interesting to me that telemetry showed 399kg of fuel still on board at entry. I’m assuming the bulk of that was used for the sky crane during landing. Another badass Mars rover, successfully delivered by JPL, and this time with an RC helicopter along for the ride. Eat it Musk.

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5 minutes ago, murps2000 said:

I’m sure you’re correct about what they used for in flight maneuvering of the spacecraft. Interesting to me that telemetry showed 399kg of fuel still on board at entry. I’m assuming the bulk of that was used for the sky crane during landing. Another badass Mars rover, successfully delivered by JPL, and this time with an RC helicopter along for the ride. 

I had a (very small) part in that helicopter.  I worked on the Atlanticus program, the Qualcomm program that adapted Qualcomm's Snapdragon processors for use on UAV's.  The processor on the helicopter is one of our reference designs.

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1 hour ago, billvon said:

Pretty sure they are using hydrazine, which is a chemical made from synthetic ingredients - ammonia, sodium hypochlorite (bleach) and butanol.  It doesn't need an oxidizer and is very stable, which is an advantage for a lander that's going to be in flight for years.

OK, so premium unleaded. And the rover runs on regular? Don't tell me it's a Tesla.

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39 minutes ago, billvon said:

I had a (very small) part in that helicopter.  I worked on the Atlanticus program, the Qualcomm program that adapted Qualcomm's Snapdragon processors for use on UAV's.  The processor on the helicopter is one of our reference designs.

That’s very cool. Thanks for your contribution. I have a hiking buddy who tests the parachutes at Ames. I’m sure he’s pretty happy today. Sorry to gush so much but as you can probably tell I’m a bit of a NASA fanboy. IMO this is the type of thing that actually does make America great.

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6 minutes ago, murps2000 said:

That’s very cool. Thanks for your contribution. I have a hiking buddy who tests the parachutes at Ames. I’m sure he’s pretty happy today. Sorry to gush so much but as you can probably tell I’m a bit of a NASA fanboy. IMO this is the type of thing that actually does make America great.

Meanwhile from Russia. Five years after completed the new spaceport Roscosmos. Still avoids using it.

The new Russian spaceport  "According to Russian prosecutors, at least US$165 million was embezzled during the construction process (critics claim that these numbers are severely downplayed), and in 2015, 350 workers painted giant messages on their barracks, asking Vladimir Putin to help after long payment delays. The current price of the spaceport is US$7.5 billion with costs rising every year (for example, an additional US$105 million was requested in 2016).[43]

press reports indicated that the Russian government is having difficulty in finding a good use for the new spaceport, and that other government ministries have been avoiding the project, calling it a "dolgostroy", which is Russian for an "endless construction boondoggle".[42]

'An unmanned Russian cargo ship launched successfully Monday with a load of supplies for the International Space Station.

The Progress MS-16 cargo ship blasted off as scheduled at 9:45 a.m. (0445 GMT) from the Russia-leased Baikonur launch facility in Kazakhstan and reached a designated orbit en route to the station."

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2 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Meanwhile from Russia. Five years after completed the new spaceport Roscosmos. Still avoids using it.

The new Russian spaceport  "According to Russian prosecutors, at least US$165 million was embezzled during the construction process (critics claim that these numbers are severely downplayed), and in 2015, 350 workers painted giant messages on their barracks, asking Vladimir Putin to help after long payment delays. The current price of the spaceport is US$7.5 billion with costs rising every year (for example, an additional US$105 million was requested in 2016).[43]

press reports indicated that the Russian government is having difficulty in finding a good use for the new spaceport, and that other government ministries have been avoiding the project, calling it a "dolgostroy", which is Russian for an "endless construction boondoggle".[42]

'An unmanned Russian cargo ship launched successfully Monday with a load of supplies for the International Space Station.

The Progress MS-16 cargo ship blasted off as scheduled at 9:45 a.m. (0445 GMT) from the Russia-leased Baikonur launch facility in Kazakhstan and reached a designated orbit en route to the station."

That is unfortunate. I hadn’t realized things have gotten that bad. Good thing for us Dragon is working out so far.

I didn’t intend to hijack another thread so to be more in line with the subject at hand, I think it’s a shame that electric cars are still such a potential fire hazard. You’d think in the almost 50 years since NASA sent three foldable, awd electric cars to the moon we would have perfected EV technology to the point that we’d be beyond that kind of thing.

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13 minutes ago, murps2000 said:

That is unfortunate. I hadn’t realized things have gotten that bad. Good thing for us Dragon is working out so far.

I didn’t intend to hijack another thread so to be more in line with the subject at hand, I think it’s a shame that electric cars are still such a potential fire hazard. You’d think in the almost 50 years since NASA sent three foldable, awd electric cars to the moon we would have perfected EV technology to the point that we’d be beyond that kind of thing.

We are, totally. Just go to the moon. That or stop with imagining why the future isn't what you imagined it would be and instead be marveled by all of the awesomeness around you.

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1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

We are, totally. Just go to the moon. That or stop with imagining why the future isn't what you imagined it would be and instead be marveled by all of the awesomeness around you.

You’re right I should probably do that, This electric car is way further out than the moon. Amazing modern age we live in.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.space.com/amp/spacex-starman-tesla-mars-flyby

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3 hours ago, murps2000 said:

I didn’t intend to hijack another thread so to be more in line with the subject at hand, I think it’s a shame that electric cars are still such a potential fire hazard. You’d think in the almost 50 years since NASA sent three foldable, awd electric cars to the moon we would have perfected EV technology to the point that we’d be beyond that kind of thing.

They're not.   There were 170,000 vehicle fires last year - 99% of which were gas vehicles.  345 people were killed.

About 2% of new cars sold are EV's.  Taking average age into account that means that about .5% of US cars are currently EV's.  If they had fires at the same rate as gas cars, we would have seen ~85 EV fires in the US last year, with 2 people killed in those fires.  We saw about 20 - and zero deaths.

So from a fire perspective they are safer than what we have now.  They SEEM more pervasive because a gas powered clunker catching fire isn't news - a Tesla is.

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