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billvon

White privilege example for this week

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(edited)
5 hours ago, billvon said:

In college my friend and I were in the dorm when we heard someone yelling.  We looked out the door - and a couple was being mugged on Memorial Drive.  The mugger saw us and took off.  We started chasing him.  We had been talking to a campus police woman 30 seconds earlier, and she was still in the dorm, so we assumed that she had seen what had happened and would call in reinforcements.

We chased him about a quarter mile to the edge of the campus.  Then he ducked into a little copse of trees.  We both went in to look for him.  I found him and yelled "HEY!"  He saw me and started running.  He and I burst out of the trees on the far side where the Cambridge Police were waiting.  This was a big strategic mistake on his part, because the Campus Police were chronically understaffed and had one car - but about half a dozen Cambridge Police had shown up and were pointing their weapons at him.

And even though we came out of the woods at the same time, and even though they did not have a good description of him yet (only about two minutes had elapsed) I had no worries that they would point those weapons at me - because I was white and he was black.

And that, my oblivious friend, is white privledge.  No economic advantages.  No "oh it's this and that in society."  It was the color of our respective skins.

When the cops arrive at a crime scene, they see me, then they look for the perp.  When I show up at a new company with a black co-worker, they talk to me, assuming I will be making the decisions for my black underling.  I don't have to take a special course to learn about white history.  That's just called "history."  I've never needed the US Supreme Court to tell the US that I have the same rights as everyone else.

There is absolutely economic privledge as well.  But to say "therefore there is no white privledge" is absurd.

Ever heard of Neil Degrasse Tyson?  Phenomenally successful astrophysicist, worth well over $5 million.  Has his own TV show.  He regularly got hassled by the cops because he's black.  And years ago when he was at a conference for black scientists, he and the other astrophysicists were sitting around talking and he mentioned his experience with the cops.  "Yep, happened to me too" every other one said.

https://m.facebook.com/nt/screen/?params={"note_id"%3A10158921215706613}&path=%2Fnotes%2F{note_id}&_rdr

Exactly.  And by claiming there is no white privledge, you are not being honest about the cause.

 

Oh Bill here you again! your story is gospel to you, but the statistics of broken homes and how prevalent they are in the Black community is not! why my oblivious friend? whos is this Evil white man who makes all these fathers leave their children? Who is this evil white man who makes it happen over and over again?

Did you read the paragraph about perception? I know YOU are above all judgments, but most humans will prejudge someone depending on experience and societal standards.

It would be odd if i wear a kilt for example in the US or walk around in a grass skirt. Same guy in a suit is going to be viewed differently then the same guy dressed like a vagabond. When a cop pulls me over it makes a difference if i am listening to Beethoven or blasting FUCK the police. If i say hello officer how may i help you? gets a different reaction then, why the fuck you pull me over pig. 

Tell Neil i know how he feels because i get looked at more closely at all airports because regardless of being a citizen on my passport it says Born in Iran, Now i am no genius like Neil is but i understand why that is as i explained in the first post i might not like it but it would be grossly designios for me to pretend i don't know why.

 

And there is no such thing as white privilege. Ask a poor white kid in a trailer park in a shitty part of town if the cops treat him awesome because he is white.

Edited by Darius11

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(edited)
42 minutes ago, Darius11 said:

I don't think there is a single group of people on the planet that has not been oppressed abused or treated unfairly at a time in history. Its terrible for sure but Victimhood is not the solution. It hasn't been for the other groups who were treated terribly and faced unfair situations in the past. The Chinese, Japanese, Irish, Italians, and on and on and not just in America all over the world, literally everyone has ancestry that's been unfairly abused. You can choose to make that your identity however i dont think its the wise choice. If you are not currently directly affected that means someone is not oppressing you right now, then get a job make better decisions and your life will improve over time, or at minimum you will improve your probability of success.. 

As for Racism, the question is what are you trying to solve? You cant invade someone's mind or control it, so as a society what we can do is not allow racist laws which i believe we both agree there are no racist laws on our books. 

Racism is not just a white Issue either, how many BLM protesters screamed your white so shut the fuck up! What you say doesn't matter because your white! The facts that these were tolerated by media and some apologists even praised this in our country is an extremely sad occasion in our history. We seem to have lost some of the principles that make this country great. If i say the next president has to be a white male that's the same statement as if i say the next president has to be a brown female, those two statements are equally ignorant. We want whomever is best qualified.

As for your last paragraph about most people not being capable of supreme effort: Ok so what's the solution? Am i supposed to help them or is that their family's responsibility?, are you to blame or the people responsible for teaching the child the people who made the child? How can you or me be responsible for a decision that we had nothing to do with?

And what do you consider supreme effort?

This country thanks to the high standard of living even the poor have it better then most of the world. I dont think its supreme effort to work 40 hr a week save money live at your means not spit out kids until your ready and have a stable S.O. These are all average basic minimum efforts stuff and all under your control. If you do these simple things you can have a good life.

What missing is these lessons of hard work , discipline, the value of education or acquiring a useful skill are not being taught at the home. Whos job is it to teach these lessons? Who is responsible for teaching  how to behave, dress, and speak in society so you would be viewed in a positive light and not a negative one? i believe its the parents job unless you want a government official to take over which would be horrific in my opinion. There are many minorities who are greatly successful why is that? how do so many brown black and asians how do so many of them succeed while they started with less than even the poorest of americans? The answer is family culture, and the values someone taught them!

The solution is hard and it takes self reflection from the communities affected to solve it for themselves. You make your community better on an individual one by one bases, sympathy about how pathetic you might be doesn't amount  to jack shit, and blaming someone or scorning the people who point out the truth will not solve the issues but perlong them.

I refer back to my earlier example.  We need to stop telling women not to wear short dresses.  And start teaching men not to rape.

We need to stop telling african americans to just work harder.  And start reforming laws that allow voter suppression, police brutality, unequal sentencing, tax breaks for the rich, and much much much more.

Every creature on the planet struggles and humans are no different.  That is true.  It has been true historically and it will continue to be true.  And it is also true that specific groups of people struggle MORE.  And specific groups of people struggle LESS.  And this is by design.  White men designed the laws that govern America.  That is a statement of fact.  Those laws have evolved/improved over time but they are still very far from being fair.  You can deny it all you want, but your denial doesn't change the truth.

 

EDIT: Sorry to pee on your parade, but America's not that great...

Edited by Nataly
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3 minutes ago, Darius11 said:

Oh Bill here you again! your story is gospel to you

Not at all.  Just one example.

Quote

whos is this Evil white man who makes all these fathers leave their children?

?? There is no such person.  What are you going on about?  Are you claiming that the only problems black people face are the problems they create for themselves?  I didn't think you were that clueless.

Quote

It would be odd if i wear a kilt for example in the US or walk around in a grass skirt.

Absolutely!  But walking around black is a lot more likely to get you shot than walking around in a grass skirt.

Quote

Same guy in a suit is going to be viewed differently then the same guy dressed like a vagabond. When a cop pulls me over it makes a difference if i am listening to Beethoven or blasting FUCK the police. 

Yep.  Now imagine because of your skin color you start off in the position that they assume you said FUCK the police, because the last person like you they saw they arrested for breaking into a liquor store and he was saying "FUCK the police."   You OK with that?  You OK with getting pulled over, saying FUCK the police and taking your chances?  Maybe if you play Beethoven it will be OK.

Quote

 I know YOU are above all judgments, but most humans will prejudge someone depending on experience and societal standards.

Of COURSE I prejudge people.  It's something called homophily and it's something I have to be on guard against.  If I see a guy who looks different, has a really thick accent, dresses differently and smells funny, I am going to tend to have a negative opinion of him.  I have to fight against that to judge such a person fairly.

If you pretend that none of that affects you - then you will judge people unfairly who don't look like you.

Quote

Tell Neil i know how he feels because i get looked at more closely at all airports because regardless of being a citizen on my passport it says Born in Iran

Who is this Evil white person who is oppressing you so?

Quote

And there us no such thing as white privilege. Ask a poor white kid in a trailer park in a shitty part of town if the cops treat him awesome because he is white.

The only people who think there's no such thing as white privledge are people who have never seen it because they benefit from it.

"People starving?  But I am at this nice restaurant, and everyone I see has plenty to eat.  There's no such thing as hunger!"

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(edited)
18 minutes ago, Darius11 said:

Oh Bill here you again! your story is gospel to you, but the statistics of broken homes and how prevalent they are in the Black community is not! why my oblivious friend? whos is this Evil white man who makes all these fathers leave their children? Who is this evil white man who makes it happen over and over again?

Did you read the paragraph about perception? I know YOU are above all judgments, but most humans will prejudge someone depending on experience and societal standards.

It would be odd if i wear a kilt for example in the US or walk around in a grass skirt. Same guy in a suit is going to be viewed differently then the same guy dressed like a vagabond. When a cop pulls me over it makes a difference if i am listening to Beethoven or blasting FUCK the police. If i say hello officer how may i help you? gets a different reaction then, why the fuck you pull me over pig. 

Tell Neil i know how he feels because i get looked at more closely at all airports because regardless of being a citizen on my passport it says Born in Iran, Now i am no genius like Neil is but i understand why that is as i explained in the first post i might not like it but it would be grossly designios for me to pretend i don't know why.

 

And there is no such thing as white privilege. Ask a poor white kid in a trailer park in a shitty part of town if the cops treat him awesome because he is white.

ah, what it must be like to remain so ignorant while in the presence of knowledge...

you need serious help my friend.  i would like to talk to you privately and get you in touch with some folks in detroit that i know who run some programs for inner city minorities so that you can learn just exactly what the fuck you are doing wrong and how bad it is when you say things like this.

or not, i don't care much other than this is the first (i'll bring that to the dz next weekend when i go down) time i have interacted with you.  my first reaction to the things you are posting would get me a perma ban, so i thought i would try to actually help and enlighten you, since you seem other wise receptive to it, unlike others on here.  the offer's there.

and for the record, i was that poor white kid in the trailer park a few times...yes, it was much easier on me than my black friends.  now piss off.

Edited by sfzombie13
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5 minutes ago, billvon said:

Not at all.  Just one example.

?? There is no such person.  What are you going on about?  Are you claiming that the only problems black people face are the problems they create for themselves?  I didn't think you were that clueless.

Absolutely!  But walking around black is a lot more likely to get you shot than walking around in a grass skirt.

Yep.  Now imagine because of your skin color you start off in the position that they assume you said FUCK the police, because the last person like you they saw they arrested for breaking into a liquor store and he was saying "FUCK the police."   You OK with that?  You OK with getting pulled over, saying FUCK the police and taking your chances?  Maybe if you play Beethoven it will be OK.

Of COURSE I prejudge people.  It's something called homophily and it's something I have to be on guard against.  If I see a guy who looks different, has a really thick accent, dresses differently and smells funny, I am going to tend to have a negative opinion of him.  I have to fight against that to judge such a person fairly.

If you pretend that none of that affects you - then you will judge people unfairly who don't look like you.

Who is this Evil white person who is oppressing you so?

The only people who think there's no such thing as white privledge are people who have never seen it because they benefit from it.

"People starving?  But I am at this nice restaurant, and everyone I see has plenty to eat.  There's no such thing as hunger!"

Billvon: agree on each point.

And will only add one thing: acknowledging that white privilege is real is not the same things as claiming "all white men are evil"

Here is one very simple example of privilege, which is natural and I bet if placed in the same situation, everyone would do the same... 

Yesterday I saw a post on LinkedIn.  His teenage daughter would like to become a marine biologist.  So he went on LinkedIn and saw that one of hits 1st connexions was an award-winning marine biologist.  He reached out and wrote a message the the marine biologist, and the marine biologist generously offered to speak with the daughter about his work.  The guy was absolutely delighted and so thankful and how wonderful and his daughter was preparing questions for the marine biologist as he was typing the post.  What ensued was a string of likes and "congratulations - that's what LinkedIn is for" and "well done for reaching out" and "awwww that marine biologist is so kind to give his time" et cetera et cetera.

Now, Mr. Darius11...  Reaching out into your network to see if you know anyone in the field of work that your daughter dreams of working in does not make you an evil person.  And being an award-winning marine biologist and mentoring a young girl who dreams of doing your job does not make you an evil person.  But can we agree that someone who cannot afford a computer and/or internet would NEVER be able to have that kind of reach for his own daughter??  I'm sure it will surprise no one that both the person who was posting and the award-wining marine biologist were white men.

This is not a rare example of white privilege - this type of self-perpetuated advantage / access is incredibly hard to break.  Now, it's lovely to see people helping each other out, and lovely to see that a girl wanted to work in a male-dominated field...  It's not coming from a bad place, but it 100% is WHITE PRIVILEGE!!!!!!!!!!

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(edited)
2 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

Looks like a lot of people don't understand the difference between "making good choices" and "having good choices".

Looks like someone gets their education on societal issues from a book/movie.

Does “Little Fires Everywhere” ring a bell?

Edited by brenthutch

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3 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Looks like someone gets there education on societal issues from a book/movie.

Does “Little Fires Everywhere” ring a bell?

Books and movies can be educational...

 

From Wikipedia:

Education is the process of facilitating learning, or the acquisition of knowledge, skills, values, morals, beliefs, and habits.

And from French Wikipedia:

- From the latin 'educere' - to be guided out of

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1 hour ago, Nataly said:

Books and movies can be educational...

 

From Wikipedia:

Education is the process of facilitating learning, or the acquisition of knowledge, skills, values, morals, beliefs, and habits.

And from French Wikipedia:

- From the latin 'educere' - to be guided out of

Hi Nataly,

Re:   someone gets there education

And paying attention in your English Composition class is also a learning process.

Jerry Baumchen

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4 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Nataly,

Re:   someone gets there education

And paying attention in your English Composition class is also a learning process.

Jerry Baumchen

 

Yes, well...  You can lead a horse to water...

 

PS: I read that Margaret Atwood has always been a terrible speller.  If this is true it is devastating  :$:$  

(Margaret Atwood: living Canadian legend/treasure and author of Handmaid's Tale...  And many more books and also frequent contributor to Globe and Mail and just all-round very very cool lady...  Honestly I would happily "waste" days on end listening to her talk...  But I digress...  DEVASTATING...)

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9 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Looks like someone gets their education on societal issues from a book/movie.

As a general rule, education is supposed to come from books. I know you prefer the truthiness of what you feel in your gut, but it's not a good source.

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10 hours ago, Darius11 said:

Oh Bill here you again! your story is gospel to you, but the statistics of broken homes and how prevalent they are in the Black community is not! why my oblivious friend? whos is this Evil white man who makes all these fathers leave their children? Who is this evil white man who makes it happen over and over again?

What do you think makes all those black fathers leave their children? Does it happen in a vacuum? Are there no external factors that created this self-perpetuating situation? Is it just what black people do, no matter what?

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5 minutes ago, nigel99 said:

This whole thread reminds me of this video. 

 

This gets me every time.

It's heartbreaking that some of the people at the very back still run their asses off knowing they don't stand a chance, overtaking tons of people but of course the outcome is as expected.

I'm not sure I would run if I were at the very back...  Why bother?

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1 hour ago, Nataly said:

This gets me every time.

It's heartbreaking that some of the people at the very back still run their asses off knowing they don't stand a chance, overtaking tons of people but of course the outcome is as expected.

I'm not sure I would run if I were at the very back...  Why bother?

when i was in the army at a training course, i would start at the back every time.  then just stand at the line for about a minute or two before starting.  they started the time when everyone was across the line.  i am very fast and that gave all the slow folks a couple of extra minutes.  in training we had to pass a pt test but it wasn't for record, so it only helped the slow ones and didn't hurt me.

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1 hour ago, Nataly said:

This gets me every time.

It's heartbreaking that some of the people at the very back still run their asses off knowing they don't stand a chance, overtaking tons of people but of course the outcome is as expected.

I'm not sure I would run if I were at the very back...  Why bother?

Did you notice the one glaring omission?  
 

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On 2/8/2021 at 8:38 PM, brenthutch said:

You obviously didn’t watch the rest of the video where the black guy debunks WP as well.

false equivalency, that was what i was looking for when i replied to the video, like this idiot is good at.  it fools stupid people, looks like it got you too, and that's why he continues to use it.  some of what he says sounds good, i've hear him before, then you dive into it and start seeing how bad he is twisting things for the idiots, and the idiots just keep posting it all over the place, not realizing just how stupid it makes them look.

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41 minutes ago, sfzombie13 said:

when i was in the army at a training course, i would start at the back every time.  then just stand at the line for about a minute or two before starting.  they started the time when everyone was across the line.  i am very fast and that gave all the slow folks a couple of extra minutes.  in training we had to pass a pt test but it wasn't for record, so it only helped the slow ones and didn't hurt me.

Let me call “bull shit”.   Just what “training course” was this?  I spent a little time in the Army (20 years) and have taken hundreds of PT tests and attended several schools (Airborne, Ranger, Pathfinder, Jump Master, and LRS to name a few) and NEVER did I witness that low standard. 
If that actually did happen (and I doubt it did) all you accomplished was to lower the physical readiness of the unit. Congratulations 

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(edited)
17 minutes ago, Nataly said:

 

What???  A 4 minute video did not cover everything there is to understand about white privilege???  Inconceivable!

“If you are white take two steps forward”

Your video debunks white privilege better than I ever could.

Edited by brenthutch

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(edited)
26 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Let me call “bull shit”.   Just what “training course” was this?  I spent a little time in the Army (20 years) and have taken hundreds of PT tests and attended several schools (Airborne, Ranger, Pathfinder, Jump Master, and LRS to name a few) and NEVER did I witness that low standard. 
If that actually did happen (and I doubt it did) all you accomplished was to lower the physical readiness of the unit. Congratulations 

pldc, bncoc, and airborne school at benning.  call whatever you want, it happened, sorry i didn't document it for you.  piss off.

ya know what?  they don't even do the same pt test any more and they wear pt uniforms at airborne school now too.  and don't get me started on the timeout cards...

piss off again.

Edited by sfzombie13
had a thought

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(edited)
55 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

“If you are white take two steps forward”

Your video debunks white privilege better than I ever could.

 

FFS.  That's not even a logical argument / conclusion.

White Privilege is the acknowledgement that there are many mechanisms at play that favour one group over another

You can keep denying that this is happening, and/or that the favoured group is white, but in order to do that you have to make mental gymnastics to ignore the facts.

PS: I took "mental gymnastics" from the podcast link yesterday.  I had just called it "disingenuous" but I also like the mental imagery of doing cartwheels and backflips ^_^

 

WP.jpeg

Edited by Nataly

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23 minutes ago, sfzombie13 said:

pldc, bncoc, and airborne school at benning.  call whatever you want, it happened, sorry i didn't document it for you.  piss off.

ya know what?  they don't even do the same pt test any more and they wear pt uniforms at airborne school now too.  and don't get me started on the timeout cards...

piss off again.

Never happened. Just another pathetic attempt at virtue signaling.

“AT THE START, ALL SOLDIERS WILL LINE UP BEHIND THE STARTING LINE. ON THE COMMAND ‘GO’, THE CLOCK WILL START.”

https://www.marist.edu/documents/20182/21440/apft.pdf/308694d2-0569-4bee-a407-f372bab51fc9

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