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billvon

White privilege example for this week

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1 hour ago, airdvr said:

Do you honestly believe labeling something as a "race problem" will get the problem solved?

If it's a race problem - yes.

Imagine you are seeing a lot of deaths at your DZ.  Someone looks into it, and it turns out that people's reserves are coming apart at terminal openings due to a slider problem.  But the DZ gear dealer sells those reserves and he swears that they are not the problem.

So out of deference to him (because he's helped you out a lot) you refer to the problem as an unstable deployment problem, not a reserve problem.

Will that get the problem solved?

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That analogy applies if there's only one reserve manufacturer.  You can call it a reserve problem.  More than one you'll have to single out the manufacturer.

It's the same with WP.  You've lumped all white people into one category.  We know the white folks in Appalachia aren't enjoying much in the way of privilege.  But where is the line drawn?  How far up the socioeconomic scale before you can apply the label?  What types of WP are you talking about?  Should someone who needs a job turn it down because they were chosen over an Asian?  

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5 minutes ago, airdvr said:

It's the same with WP.  You've lumped all white people into one category.  We know the white folks in Appalachia aren't enjoying much in the way of privilege.  But where is the line drawn?

The same place as the line for class privilege. It's not a line, it's a continuum, and it's complicated, with the same rules not applying for everyone for any number of reasons. A wage earner with 12 children and an income of $100,000/year in NYC is very different from a single wage earner with the same income in central Iowa.

Some of those white folks in Appalachia still look down on minorities, and treat them only as politely as they absolutely have to. If those white folks have power (e.g. they're the police, or the town clerk, or even the cashier at the department store), then they can make life for the people they look down on just a little harder. That's privilege. Not a big privilege, and that cashier can still be living in a trailer with two windows out, and the person they just had security check out because they might be a shoplifter might be the most successful salesman at the dealership. But they still had to deal with store security because the cashier thought they looked shifty.

Wendy P.

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(edited)
4 hours ago, airdvr said:

It's the same with WP.  You've lumped all white people into one category.  We know the white folks in Appalachia aren't enjoying much in the way of privilege.  But where is the line drawn?  How far up the socioeconomic scale before you can apply the label?  What types of WP are you talking about?  Should someone who needs a job turn it down because they were chosen over an Asian?  

I know this thread is titled "White privilege" specifically, but I think that's muddying the waters more than it should be, and I also think you're making a genuine effort to understand better.

The core principle of privilege (as I understand it) that addresses what seems to be your main concern, is the phrase "All other things being equal"...

All other things being equal, being white (in a Western nation) will give you an advantage over those who aren't.

All other things being equal, being male will give you an advantage.

All other things being equal, being heterosexual will give you an advantage.

All other things being equal, being born into a middle-class family will give you an advantage over those who were born into poor families.

Etc, etc.

I'm a straight white male, as were all my peer group growing up. But they were largely middle class and above, with both parents around, whereas I grew up fairly poor with a single mother (for most of my childhood). All other things being equal, their economic privilege gave them a measurable leg-up on me. I could have done better than I did with hard work, but I also didn't have the role-models to show me how and why.

It doesn't mean you need to feel bad about your successes, or that you didn't earn them. It's just a matter of acknowledging that others didn't always get the same opportunities you may have, based on something they had no control over.

Comparing Tiger Woods to an average white Joe in Appalachia is pointless, because of course he enjoys some privileges they don't. If you compared him to a white golfer of similar fame levels though, you might see some divergence. That's all privilege really is.

Edited by mistercwood
EDIT: Speeling. And clarified one of the later para's.
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15 minutes ago, mistercwood said:

It doesn't mean you need to feel bad about your successes, or that you didn't earn them. It's just a matter of acknowledging that others didn't always get the same opportunities you may have.

Comparing Tiger Woods to an average white Joe in Appalachia is pointless, because of course he enjoys some privileges they don't. If you compared him to a white golfer of similar fame levels though, you might see some divergence. That's all privilege really is.

Beautifully said. And I completely agree that Airdvr is posting to investigate and think about his beliefs, not just school others on theirs.

Wendy P.

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5 hours ago, airdvr said:

That analogy applies if there's only one reserve manufacturer.  You can call it a reserve problem.  More than one you'll have to single out the manufacturer.

So you believe that calling it a "reserve problem" will help get the problem solved.  I agree.

Quote

It's the same with WP.  You've lumped all white people into one category.  

That's because racism involves seeing people through the filter of race.  And the white cop who's a racist does indeed see the white teen very differently than the black teen. The white teen is a citizen, the black teen is a perp.  THAT is one of the many places white privledge comes from.

Want to fight that?  Get the cop to realize that those aren't givens, that he is giving white people the benefit of the doubt..

Want it to continue forever?  Deny it happens.

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3 hours ago, billvon said:

So you believe that calling it a "reserve problem" will help get the problem solved.  I agree.

That's because racism involves seeing people through the filter of race.  And the white cop who's a racist does indeed see the white teen very differently than the black teen. The white teen is a citizen, the black teen is a perp.  THAT is one of the many places white privledge comes from.

Want to fight that?  Get the cop to realize that those aren't givens, that he is giving white people the benefit of the doubt..

Want it to continue forever?  Deny it happens.

OK...so maybe "cop privilege".  Those are great examples of individuals, not the collective race.

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6 hours ago, airdvr said:

OK...so maybe "cop privilege".  Those are great examples of individuals, not the collective race.

what is your agenda?  it clearly isn't talking about the issue in this thread, since all you've done after denying it even exists is try to show how something else is THE problem, when it has been stated numerous times that is ANOTHER problem but not the topic of this discussion.  you are now trying very hard to use the racist tactics i usually call out but will refrain from in this instance since i am not certain you are not trolling, hence the question.  of course, you could be a passive racist, but so are about 50 or so million americans, but i am trying to understand your thought process so that i can better address it in the future.  you can send the answer in a dm if you don't want anyone to know you're trolling, i get them sometimes and never speak of them in order to maintain privacy.

 

why are you trying so hard to divert the discussion from the topic stated?  just because one issue is not our only problem does not mean that makes it non-existent.  we have multiple problems in this country, most of them which are rooted deeply in the racist beginnings of our nation, and exacerbated by the continued oppression of a certain race of folks for over 150 years after slavery was "abolished".  that is also a racist tactic, but is a tactic also used by misogynists and abusers, so means nothing by itself.  i don't care enough about it to correlate it with any of your previous comments to see if i can figure it out, i would rather ask.  this question i prefer you to answer in the thread if you don't mind, as it pertains to the topic. 

 

of course, none of this matters one bit, just an fyi to myself, but inquiring minds want to know, so to speak.

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now they're not even trying to hide what they're doing...an excerpt:

"

Once Joe Biden became president, he undid Trump’s critical race theory ban, but lawmakers in several states have proposed their own prohibitions. An Arkansas legislator introduced a pair of bills, one banning the teaching of The Times’s 1619 Project curriculum, and the other nixing classes, events and activities that encourage “division between, resentment of, or social justice for” specific groups of people. “What is not appropriate is being able to theorize, use, specifically, critical race theory,” the bills’ sponsor told The Arkansas Democrat Gazette.

Republicans in West Virginia and Oklahoma have introduced bills banning schools and, in West Virginia’s case, state contractors from promoting “divisive concepts,” including claims that “the United States is fundamentally racist or sexist.” A New Hampshire Republican also proposed a “divisive concepts” ban, saying in a hearing, “This bill addresses something called critical race theory.”

"

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18 hours ago, airdvr said:

OK...so maybe "cop privilege".  Those are great examples of individuals, not the collective race.

Well, more like cop racism.  The people who don't have their necks knelt on have the privledge.

Some white people are racists.  Some white cops are racists.  They are, fortunately rare.  Just because you are white (or black, or asian) does NOT mean you are a racist, even if other white people are.

White people get the advantage of the benefit of the doubt from some racist cops.  ALL white people get that privledge.

There's a difference between racism (an individual decision by a racist) and privledge (a benefit conferred to all people of a certain group regardless of their decisions or merit.)  Racism is evil; privledge is not, it just is.

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1 minute ago, billvon said:

There's a difference between racism (an individual decision by a racist) and privilege (a benefit conferred to all people of a certain group regardless of their decisions or merit.)  Racism is evil; privilege is not, it just is.

The problem is that many folks who are among the privileged refuse to see it.

They seem to think that pointing out the privileges they get (through no fault of their own) is the same as calling them 'racist'.

Of course, many who take that attitude ARE racist. And they resent being told that having privilege over minorities is a bad thing. They don't think that it's bad, they think it's how it's supposed to be.

Not all of them, but many.

I'm both surprised and disappointed at how many folks are turning out to be racist. Not blatantly, not openly, but racist none the less.

"Black Lives Matter is a hate group just like the KKK" is one that's popped up lately.

There are lots of others.

 

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On 2/27/2021 at 6:22 AM, airdvr said:

Bill...you really jumped the shark with that post.  Sounds like there are no employed black doctors living in nice apartments eating dinner at a restaurant.

listen to this guy.  he is more eloquent than i, and explains why white privilege does exist and other things you should know.  unless you're just trolling.

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I am not denying that some white people have benefitted from being offered opportunities that people of color have not.  Some people of color have had the privilege as well simply by being of a certain race.  But singling out a race is divisive.  It just leads to more racism.

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On 2/28/2021 at 6:54 AM, billvon said:

Yes, they have tried, which speaks well of them.  It's still a problem.

Back in the UK a work colleague went to University with a guy from Nigeria. The Nigerian graduated towards the top of the class and yet simply could not get an interview and therefore job as a software engineer. This was dot com and y2k era so massive shortage. Being a really clever guy he changed his name by deed pole to Bill Gates and got an interview and job within a few days.

Sure the novelty of employing Bill Gates played a part, but it shows a systemic problem that he felt compelled to change his name.

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3 hours ago, airdvr said:

I am not denying that some white people have benefitted from being offered opportunities that people of color have not.  Some people of color have had the privilege as well simply by being of a certain race.  But singling out a race is divisive.  It just leads to more racism.

didn't watch it, did ya?  i didn't think you would. 

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I watched it, but it goes on the assumption that white people are the problem.  There are soooo many other problems contributing.  Until those are addressed WP will be an excuse for many.

What problems?  Let's start with kids with no father figure in the home.  Rampant drug and alcohol abuse.  Lack of education.  Lack of opportunity.  Criminal records that never go away.  Staggering murder rates.

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36 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I watched it, but it goes on the assumption that white people are the problem.

That is because it is specifically aimed at having white people understand what he sees as the white part of society's role. Of course it goes on about white people, that is the point. That does not mean he or anyone else can find no fault in black society. It simply is not the subject.

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I'm talking about the statement "I fervently believe that if the white person is your problem only the white person can be your solution".  

I'm not going to say anything more about it for fear of being branded.

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43 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I watched it, but it goes on the assumption that white people are the problem.  There are soooo many other problems contributing.  Until those are addressed WP will be an excuse for many.

What problems?  Let's start with kids with no father figure in the home.  Rampant drug and alcohol abuse.  Lack of education.  Lack of opportunity.  Criminal records that never go away.  Staggering murder rates.

that is exactly what a racist bastard would say.  don't listen to the guy who is trying to explain how white people can help, or how they ARE the CAUSE of the problem, throw another excuse in there and change the subject back to something you're more comfortable with.  that will solve it. 

don't be afraid of being branded, you did that to yourself.

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8 hours ago, airdvr said:

But singling out a race is divisive.  It just leads to more racism.

That sounds like PC run amok.

White people do have privledge.  Black people have seen a lot of discrimination.  Those aren't things that people merely have opinions on, or things that are really subject to debate.  And you won't fix them until you can talk about them.

Take Bidil as a simple example.  It's a drug used for black cardiac patients, since it works better for African-Americans.  Telling a doctor "singling out race is divisive!" would result in poorer care for their patients.

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On 2/27/2021 at 7:22 AM, airdvr said:

We can always find examples of people being discriminated against.  All races.  Calling out one race as the cause of other's problems is a mistake.

Is it? Didn't we just spend 4 years blaming "mexicans" for most of the problems? Every election "caravans" show up.

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5 hours ago, airdvr said:

I'm talking about the statement "I fervently believe that if the white person is your problem only the white person can be your solution".  

I'm not going to say anything more about it for fear of being branded.

fear not, that happened long before this post.

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