White privilege example for this week

[BIGUN 1,229]

7 hours ago, jakee said:

How about you read the part of my post where I directly addressed the thing you just underlined? I can't be bothered to repeat it just because you can't be bothered to pay attention.

>>>You did not address it at all - that is why I BOLD, ITALICIZED AND UNDERLINED IT. 

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I asked if you served in the military - what I got was a whole pivot of, "I certainly haven't served in yours. But the people who have actually studied the problem instead of just relying on their own anecdotal experience and who have concluded that the Army does still suffer from institutional discrimination, have served in the military. ***What I have or have not done is irrelevant, the information still exists independently of my life choices." 

It was a simple yes or no question. *** It is relevant. "Anecdotal Experience" is also Anecdotal Evidence and is allowed in a court of law. Professor Kallend, based on your experience in physics, Mr. Von, based on your experience in engineering, Mr. Weber, based on your experience as a DZO, etc. Well, based on my twenty years of experience in the military, we were fucking green Jakee. You simply cannot work on a team that is devoted to the mission and the lives of each member and see any other color. Race was not a factor. The ONLY factor was being good enough to be on the team and knowing the "MAN" next to you had your back and you had his,   

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(Now will you use this as another opportunity to attack and pivot, or will you talk about the issues for once?)

And, then sadly, you end it with what I said to you. You know, I'm really thinking that some of you on here have realized that you're a lot more racist than those you accuse. You look in the mirror and don't see what you like, so instead of calling it what it is, and calling out directly who you should, you hide behind this label of "White Privilege." Meanwhile, we have a new Secretary of Defense. He got there because he was good, not because of his color or lack thereof. He's the fucking COO of the US Military and he got there being green; not black. 

Maybe if you folks on the left quit identifying people by color and looking for the bad, you'll see the good. Not all white men are members of the KKK, not all black men are gangstas, quit establishing labels and let's just call each other - Americans.  

Jakee, here's the best thing you and I can do for each other. Block each other. Win, Win, Win. You win, I win, everyone else wins.   

[billvon 2,683]

8 hours ago, jakee said:

 . . .who have concluded that the Army does still suffer from institutional discrimination, have served in the military.

I can't speak to the Army, but I can speak to the Air Force (worked for them) and the Navy (worked with a lot of people from the Navy.)  And there, as in the rest of the world, most people were pretty good about it.  There were some people who were still problems.

[jakee 1,319]

8 hours ago, BIGUN said:

>>>You did not address it at all - that is why I BOLD, ITALICIZED AND UNDERLINED IT. 

Why? What do you want me to say about it? It doesn't contradict any of my points.

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Well, based on my twenty years of experience in the military, we were fucking green Jakee. You simply cannot work on a team that is devoted to the mission and the lives of each member and see any other color. Race was not a factor. The ONLY factor was being good enough to be on the team and knowing the "MAN" next to you had your back and you had his,   

Right, and based on the actual wide ranging investigations carried out by people who also spent decades in the military, that is not the case across the board. Your statement that racism can't exist when it's important that the team function successfully is, unfortunately, hopelessly naive. Look at those articles you couldn't be bothered to read - there were soldiers hanging Nazi flags on the walls of their accomodation who were left alone by their superiors because they were doing a good enough job that it wasn't considerd a problem.

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And, then sadly, you end it with what I said to you. You know, I'm really thinking that some of you on here have realized that you're a lot more racist than those you accuse. You look in the mirror and don't see what you like, so instead of calling it what it is, and calling out directly who you should, you hide behind this label of "White Privilege."

LOL, the perfect demonstration. You just attack again. You know I'm not a racist. You know that's an absurd lie purely designed to get a reaction. It's also been pretty clearly stated numerous times recently that it's a bannable personal attack so I expect Wendy will be having a word with you.

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Jakee, here's the best thing you and I can do for each other. Block each other. Win, Win, Win. You win, I win, everyone else wins.   

You can if you want. I'm not sensitive enough to feel the need to do that.

[sfzombie13 317]

now i'm not one to assume many things, but it looks like you're arguing this black/white thing again @jakee.  @BIGUN can be right on this one, since he is using anecdotal evidence and you are not.  the military isn't a thing like amazon.  it's more like the country, in that it's made up of different subsections of the country.  some areas (units, or bases) are doing a lot better fighting racism than others.  some types of people (different jobs like infantry, artillery, etc.) are doing better than others.  for example, it looks like ft hood is struggling with females and assaults, while most other places are doing better with it. 

another thing he didn't account for is the difference between special operations and the regular military.  they are mostly better at a lot of things.  he was also in a long time ago, so some of his observations don't match mine.  also, it's hard to get a thorough look at the whole military while you're in.  you see maybe one or two units in a four year tour, and even then, you only see the part you're involved with, unless you reach a level of command so you can see more, but then you lose the troops' perspective.  not to mention the tabbed guy factor he had that i didn't.  sometimes it let doors open for you, sometimes it was easier to get around unnoticed without it.

i think it's the time factor more than anything here, since i saw some shit back in the late '80s that would never fly today.  platoon sgt wiping coke off a mustache during in ranks inspection, walking down a pt test 2 mile run passing a bottle of jim, and some self incriminating things i'd rather not mention.  it's not like we were looking over our shoulders either, i could trust that any of our guys had my back regardless of color.  same goes for anything i post about the military, my experience ended in '04, and it has changed a lot since then. 

[jakee 1,319]

43 minutes ago, sfzombie13 said:

now i'm not one to assume many things, but it looks like you're arguing this black/white thing again @jakee.  @BIGUN can be right on this one, since he is using anecdotal evidence and you are not.  the military isn't a thing like amazon. 

That's exactly why he's wrong when making a blanket statement. 

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another thing he didn't account for is the difference between special operations and the regular military.  they are mostly better at a lot of things.  he was also in a long time ago, so some of his observations don't match mine.  also, it's hard to get a thorough look at the whole military while you're in.  you see maybe one or two units in a four year tour, and even then, you only see the part you're involved with, unless you reach a level of command so you can see more, but then you lose the troops' perspective.

All more reasons why making blanket, black and white statements based only on his personal experience is wrong.

[sfzombie13 317]

41 minutes ago, jakee said:

That's exactly why he's wrong when making a blanket statement. 

All more reasons why making blanket, black and white statements based only on his personal experience is wrong.

but it isn't wrong, it's just viewed from a different perspective.  just like your views are not necessarily wrong, even with no personal experience to add.  your views are based on others' opinions and words, which could just as well be as biased as anything else.  his views from his part of the military showed him that racism was not a problem.  i didn't see it either, until i came back in, almost 10 years after i got out.  it also isn't based just on his personal experience if i recall correctly, as he has talked with many others, and i believe he mentioned once that it was a topic of discussion he had in the past.  some of my information is based on talking with vets, and soldiers, just to confirm what i saw or the extent.  i even had one friend who was very much race tolerant who said that his years in the 82d turned him into a racist, based on his experiences with blacks in his unit and on bragg. 

[jakee 1,319]

1 hour ago, sfzombie13 said:

but it isn't wrong, it's just viewed from a different perspective. 

Perspective doesn't change what is actually happening, it only changes whether you've seen it or not. When he's making blanket statements about the entire military based only on the things he has personally seen he is wrong.

[wolfriverjoe 1,449]

1 hour ago, sfzombie13 said:

but it isn't wrong, it's just viewed from a different perspective...

It's wrong.

To pretend that the entire military sees itself as "just green" because a small, elite segment of it does that is ignoring the reality that, as you noted above, the military is a microcosm of the entire country.

My understanding and (limited) experience is that there's less racism in the military than out in the 'real world'. But 'less' doesn't mean 'none'.

[BIGUN 1,229]

1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:

My understanding and (limited) experience is that there's less racism in the military than out in the 'real world'. But 'less' doesn't mean 'none'.

Which is exactly what I said -

"And, what you guys don't seem to get is that improvement is continuous, Not perfect at any point in time and we all can do better. But, the military is doing the best at improving. Much better than the civilian sector. "   

[billvon 2,683]

1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:

My understanding and (limited) experience is that there's less racism in the military than out in the 'real world'. But 'less' doesn't mean 'none'.

Agreed.  Further I noticed a pretty steep divide, especially within the Navy.  WITHIN the unit there was very little racism; people treated each other equally.  (Or more accurately people treated each other based on their actual ability or lack thereof.)  

But outside that tight-knit community there was often more prejudice leveled at all sorts of targets.  Blacks, civilians, gays, Asians, people who lived in Rio Linda.  While I was working at McClellan there was one guy who would wax on about how irresponsible black men were, and that's why black kids were growing up in poverty.  Cycle of poverty, he would say, and it's their own damn fault.   "Not like Davis, he's responsible" the guy would regularly add.   (I know, that's an Air Force example, but it's the example that comes to mind.)

[SkyDekker 1,271]

17 hours ago, BIGUN said:

You simply cannot work on a team that is devoted to the mission and the lives of each member and see any other color. Race was not a factor. The ONLY factor was being good enough to be on the team and knowing the "MAN" next to you had your back and you had his, 

You don't see the irony in claiming people from these teams can't see race, but they certainly can see gender? I mean, these are teams who have determined they cannot be trusted to perform properly if they happen to see boobies close-up.

[SkyDekker 1,271]

17 hours ago, billvon said:

I can't speak to the Army, but I can speak to the Air Force (worked for them) and the Navy (worked with a lot of people from the Navy.)  And there, as in the rest of the world, most people were pretty good about it.  There were some people who were still problems.

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2020/02/06/signs-of-white-supremacy-extremism-up-again-in-poll-of-active-duty-troops/

[BIGUN 1,229]

2 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

You don't see the irony in claiming people from these teams can't see race, but they certainly can see gender? I mean, these are teams who have determined they cannot be trusted to perform properly if they happen to see boobies close-up.

Try to keep up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaye_Lynne_Haver

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristen_Marie_Griest

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2020/07/09/a-woman-became-a-green-beret-today-a-huge-milestone-for-the-army-and-the-military-but-she-isnt-the-first-female-to-earn-the-title/

And, they continue going to the schools and be assigned in SF/SOF 

[SkyDekker 1,271]

17 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Try to keep up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaye_Lynne_Haver

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristen_Marie_Griest

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2020/07/09/a-woman-became-a-green-beret-today-a-huge-milestone-for-the-army-and-the-military-but-she-isnt-the-first-female-to-earn-the-title/

And, they continue going to the schools and be assigned in SF/SOF 

Any of those during your time?

[wmw999 2,291]

21 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Try to keep up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaye_Lynne_Haver

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristen_Marie_Griest

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2020/07/09/a-woman-became-a-green-beret-today-a-huge-milestone-for-the-army-and-the-military-but-she-isnt-the-first-female-to-earn-the-title/

And, they continue going to the schools and be assigned in SF/SOF 

I think there are two components to a lot of isms

1. the officially-sanctioned (e.g. Jim Crow laws, long illegal in all the US)
2. individual prejudice, which can affect people simply by being exercised on an individual basis by someone with power to do so.

The US military, with its official desegregation in the 1940's, officially eliminated #1. However, the fact of #2 means that individual people who could get away with it still could exercise individual power and still be (whatever)-ist.

The US Supreme Court desegregated schools in 1954. There were still segregated (as in officially, not de-facto) schools in 1970. There were still hiring managers at lots of companies who wouldn't hire black people (or hispanic in some cases, etc). Officially it was illegal, but it still happened. Happened to me; I was denied at least two jobs in the 1970's for being female -- quite illegal, but hey, they had the jobs and I didn't have a compelling enough case to take them to the EEOC.

Wendy P.

[BIGUN 1,229]

5 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

Any of those during your time?

Yes, the first one.. 

[BIGUN 1,229]

Just sharing. A younger Harley rider and I were discussing music genres and he turned me on to a rapper named Tom MacDonald. "Fake Woke" and "No Lives Matter." I find the message intriguing, but I'm not a big fan of rap in itself. Well, at least not since Coolio did "Gangsta Paradise." 

 

EDIT: I suppose I should have entered the hyperlinks the first time. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by BIGUN

[brenthutch 416]

 

[airdvr 201]

I'm beginning to think that class privilege is the problem.  Take Tiger for example.  You and I would have most likely been charged with reckless op.  Tiger gets a pass.

[wmw999 2,291]

Class privilege is definitely a problem; money talks. People use their connections, and money buys connections (why do so many parents who can, want their kids to go to Ivy League schools?)

Class is correlated with race. Not that race makes it impossible (look at Tiger, after all), but other historical factors combine to put them together a disproportionate amount of the time.

Wendy P.

[Phil1111 1,050]

38 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I'm beginning to think that class privilege is the problem.  Take Tiger for example.  You and I would have most likely been charged with reckless op.  Tiger gets a pass.

It sure looks as if he fell asleep, so undue care and attention. The local Sheriff could be waiting for the results of the "black box" results. Tiger was charged a time or two before.

[wolfriverjoe 1,449]

2 hours ago, airdvr said:

I'm beginning to think that class privilege is the problem.  Take Tiger for example.  You and I would have most likely been charged with reckless op.  Tiger gets a pass.

The stories I've seen & read have made it clear that they took a good hard look at him at the scene. They made it clear that they determined that he didn't appear impaired. Nor was there any evidence of alcohol or drugs in the car.
So they looked for that too.

I'm guessing that the investigation is continuing and that they are making sure of what they have before issuing any charges.
Tiger isn't poor. 
If they don't get this right, his lawyer will tear them to shreds.

I think they know that and are being careful & thorough.

We'll see what the next week or so brings.

[BIGUN 1,229]

29 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

We'll see what the next week or so brings.

"The road has seen 13 accidents since last January."

"We don't contemplate any charges whatsoever in this crash," Villanueva said Wednesday in a Facebook Live chat. "This remains an accident. An accident is not a crime. They do happen, unfortunately."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/24/us/tiger-woods-car-accident-what-we-know-intl-spt/index.html

You  know I ride all over the country on a Harley and there are just some fucked up roads that can try to kill you as much as an inattentive driver in a vehicle. My suspicion is Tiger's attorneys are going to obliterate the highway department and possibly even make it a class-action suit. .    

[airdvr 201]

5 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

"The road has seen 13 accidents since last January."

"We don't contemplate any charges whatsoever in this crash," Villanueva said Wednesday in a Facebook Live chat. "This remains an accident. An accident is not a crime. They do happen, unfortunately."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/24/us/tiger-woods-car-accident-what-we-know-intl-spt/index.html

You  know I ride all over the country on a Harley and there are just some fucked up roads that can try to kill you as much as an inattentive driver in a vehicle. My suspicion is Tiger's attorneys are going to obliterate the highway department and possibly even make it a class-action suit. .    

No better example of class privilege right there.

Edited February 26, 2021 by airdvr

[wmw999 2,291]

1 minute ago, airdvr said:

No better example of class privilege right there.

Except that if the road is an accident trap, is that privilege being used to better things, like adding one more (louder) voice to the chorus?
Wendy P.