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billvon

White privilege example for this week

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1 minute ago, airdvr said:

I'd be interested in seeing the body cam footage of those.

That's the thing -- you want to see the bodycam footage before thinking it's unfair or wrong; makes it look like you're more open to the police being right than being uneven in their application of the law.

There's always a difference

Wendy P.

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5 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I'd be interested in seeing the body cam footage of those.

I don't know much about either. And I don't know much about the Mesa PD. The real point I am making is that although you don't think there are rogue police in Mesa the fact is they are everywhere.

Edited by gowlerk

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1 minute ago, wmw999 said:

That's the thing -- you want to see the bodycam footage before thinking it's unfair or wrong; makes it look like you're more open to the police being right than being uneven in their application of the law.

There's always a difference

Wendy P.

It's been a long time since I took the internet at face value.

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On 2/11/2021 at 1:02 AM, brenthutch said:

Or maybe it was because the first time they hit a roadblock in their career they chalked it up to racism and gave up.  Powell and others persevered and made it to the top.  That is why the concepts of “white privilege” and “systemic racism” are so pernicious.  It gives an excuse for failure.  It makes failure easy. Instead of one looking at one’s  own opportunities for growth they blame it on a nameless faceless “system”.

Once again, how convenient that admitting that there is a problem generated and perpetuated by people who look like you, would somehow be even more damaging for the people who don't look like you.

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If systemic racism was a real thing, I doubt we would have a black senator from the home of the confederacy.

Interesting one. Alabama, for example, elected 3 black Congressmen within a decade of the civil war. It took well over 100 years to elect another, and there have still only been another 3 in the last 30 years. While I'm sure that unrepentant racists would like to claim that black people as a whole must have simply lost interest in pursuing the self determination of their place in society, but I'm pretty sure that anyone with a clue would recognise the lasting effect of decades of Jim Crow laws, and decades of further systemic racism including nationally co-ordinated armed voter suppression and extreme gerrymandering by the Republican party.

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On 2/10/2021 at 9:32 PM, BIGUN said:

"Do Better"  You and Jakee are the two that most have deteriorated this forum over the years with your arrogance. You don't read what people wrote, you attack and then pivot. 

Great advice for youself, do better! Saying I don't read what people write is an outright lie, and you know it. You, on the other hand, I cannot remember the last time you even attempted to defend a point you made here. At the first hint of contradiction you simply attack the person responding to you without even touching the topic at hand. 

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The both of you need professional help. 

QED. I don't know when you became too sensitive to handle any form of criticism but I know you used to be better than this. 

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On 2/11/2021 at 3:40 PM, BIGUN said:

I was in from the early 70's to the early 90's. It was a time of drastic change. The articles that you and Jakee are referring are WaPo exceptions, not the rule.

Hereby proving that you don't read what people wrote. The military itself admitting that systemic disparities in how different races are treated exist within its institutions, including its internal justice system, cannot possibly be defined as any kind of exception. 

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And, what you guys don't seem to get is that improvement is continuous, Not perfect at any point in time and we all can do better.

Sure they're trying. But they quite obviously have not yet come close to fully succeeding. And while the everyday experience of life in the Army is not yet the same for black and white soldiers across the board, the claim that the only colour in the Army is green is insane.

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49 minutes ago, jakee said:

Hereby proving that you don't read what people wrote. The military itself admitting that systemic disparities in how different races are treated exist within its institutions, including its internal justice system, cannot possibly be defined as any kind of exception. 

Sure they're trying. But they quite obviously have not yet come close to fully succeeding. And while the everyday experience of life in the Army is not yet the same for black and white soldiers across the board, the claim that the only colour in the Army is green is insane.

You only quoted part of what I posted. Let's READ the whole thing together, shall we?

And, what you guys don't seem to get is that improvement is continuous, Not perfect at any point in time and we all can do better. But, the military is doing the best at improving. Much better than the civilian sector.    

Pay attention. 

>>>>> "the claim that the only colour in the Army is green is insane."

You've never served in the military, have you?

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Bigun, there are too many cases of discrimination against women in the military to say that the only color that matters is green, if you treat the two as analogous. That they acknowledge there's room for improvement is clear, and that improvements are being made is clear. But there are clearly areas where the culture accepts some types more than others. Often this is localized within a chain of command, but if going outside the chain of command is frowned on, then it remains a problem. The military in some ways has some of the best reporting mechanisms, too.

It's a human issue, not a military issue.

I used to work for IBM; they had a very robust affirmative action program at the time, but you could still very easily see departments where it wasn't paid attention, and others where it clearly was. And most people go with the power structure, because they have to live in it every single day.

Wendy P.

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18 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

 

It's a human issue, not a military issue.

 

this is the heart of the matter.  the military is a subset of society.  not a truly representative one, but one nonetheless.  i was eo nco in my unit, and we only had one person of color, and about a few dozen latino folks, no women.  there were still cases of discrimination, and cases where things were overlooked, depending on who was being looked at.  not just the tabbed guys, but almost like high school in the nature of what happened.  i fell on the wrong side of one of the guys, but since he died of stage 4 lung cancer and i got to piss on his grave, i's say i won that one, even though i didn't get to retire from the military, and seeing the direction it went, am pretty glad i didn't.

anyone with a military background who says there is only one color, green, should be looked at very closely.  i too used to have an idealistic sense of what the military was all about, then i kept getting slapped in the face with reality. 

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20 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Bigun, there are too many cases of discrimination against women in the military to say that the only color that matters is green, if you treat the two as analogous. That they acknowledge there's room for improvement is clear, and that improvements are being made is clear. But there are clearly areas where the culture accepts some types more than others. Often this is localized within a chain of command, but if going outside the chain of command is frowned on, then it remains a problem. The military in some ways has some of the best reporting mechanisms, too.

The subject I was addressing was race, not gender. Having said that, I can't speak to this subject having served in a unit in which women could not serve.   

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18 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

The subject I was addressing was race, not gender. Having said that, I can't speak to this subject having served in a unit in which women could not serve.   

Bigun, you served in the creme de lá creme; it’s not surprising that there would be more people who strove to be the best, as I’m sure you did and still do. I’d bet your units were more squared away and together in general, because, well, special forces. 
My cousin’s son is SF now; he honestly believes that women have ruined most of the institutions that were once all-male. I don’t know his personal/private views on race (knowing his parents, I’d bet they’re just as progressive as their views on gender, and that’s pretty progressive). His behavior is professional; his mother respects and trusts him, but they absolutely can’t talk about any sort of social issues. 
One wonders how he would view professional behavior if he weren’t SF, or had a CO who tolerated a little “discretion.” And that’s a shame. It’s no different from police departments, where the tone is set by the local chain of command. 
Wendy P. 

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22 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

What in the fuck does that mean?

it means i question what they are saying.  anyone who uses certain phrases which have been identified as being dog whistles, a term i just learned of this past year, or other things that some are saying are now racist needs to have their words examined to see if they really are just passive racists, as some are, or are just not up with the times and how language evolves. 

for example, i used to say "i don't see color" to mean that i see everyone as equal.  that term has since become a dog whistle used by passive racists.  i stopped using it so as not to be associated with racism.  does that mean that everyone that still uses it is a racist?  of course not.  but that, taken along with other dog whistles and the tone of speech used can be combined to point to that.  it's not the only thing i use, since that can just mean the individual is repeating things they hear, and not familiar with the changed nature of the words.  or it can mean that person is in fact a racist. 

in your case, i have determined that you did not mean anything racist when you said that, not that it matters much what i think about you, but it does need to be said.  and know that i have been wrong before, and have misjudged folks both ways, so i tend to keep a judgement like that to myself anyway so as not to alienate everyone in my life. 

when i was the eo nco in the special forces, not tabbed of course just a support mos, there was an incident when i learned that blacks were referred to as a #5, which comes from crayons, since the black crayon is the fifth one in the box of eight.  i never reported that person, and i should have.  at the time, there were no black soldiers in the unit, so i let it go.  that was a mistake, but i have since moved on after finding out there were much deeper issues than that.  like when one of our b team guys got himself a plane ticket out of theater when he thought his wife was cheating on him.  she was, but that was desertion, yet the guy got a promotion and a full time agr job after the deployment.  it took me years to connect his last name, root, with kbr who had major contracts and lots of money.  i don't know that he was part of that family, but it fits.

what did you think it meant?  i'm curious now.

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1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

You only quoted part of what I posted. Let's READ the whole thing together, shall we?

And, what you guys don't seem to get is that improvement is continuous, Not perfect at any point in time and we all can do better. But, the military is doing the best at improving. Much better than the civilian sector.    

Pay attention. 

How about you read the part of my post where I directly addressed the thing you just underlined? I can't be bothered to repeat it just because you can't be bothered to pay attention.

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>>>>> "the claim that the only colour in the Army is green is insane."

You've never served in the military, have you?

I certainly haven't served in yours. But the people who have actually studied the problem instead of just relying on their own anecdotal experience and who have concluded that the Army does still suffer from institutional discrimination, have served in the military. What I have or have not done is irrelevant, the information still exists independently of my life choices. 

(Now will you use this as another opportunity to attack and pivot, or will you talk about the issues for once?)

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3 hours ago, jakee said:

Apparently not interested enough to do the 10 seconds of googling it would take to find them. 

I was able to find the motel shooting vid.  Bad move by the officer.  He was basically a dick during the entire time and should be removed.

As an aside I'm wondering who the woman was in the room with him.  Didn't appear to be his wife.  Not that it has an bearing on the outcome.

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1 hour ago, jakee said:

(Now will you use this as another opportunity to attack and pivot, or will you talk about the issues for once?)

His choice of issues may not be yours, and his basic orientation isn't, but Bigun has a long history of substantive issues when he's discussing.

Wendy P.

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7 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I was able to find the motel shooting vid.  Bad move by the officer.  He was basically a dick during the entire time and should be removed.

The fact that there are so many more videos with officers who seem to feel free to be dicks with minorities rather than majorities (even though a majority of interactions is, in fact, with whites in most jurisdictions) should be an indication.

This doesn't tar the whole profession, any more than a single good cop means they're all good. They're people, and the tone their command structure sets has a lot to do with how individual departments respond.

Wendy P.

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2 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

His choice of issues may not be yours, and his basic orientation isn't, but Bigun has a long history of substantive issues when he's discussing.

Wendy P.

He used to. I haven’t seen any evidence of it for years.

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On 2/20/2021 at 11:12 AM, airdvr said:

Joe seems to enjoy attacking how others make a living.  He'd like you believe one thing but it's entirely possible it's the other.

54417cbbd6723.image.jpg?crop=480%2C270%2C0%2C46&resize=480%2C270&order=crop%2Cresize

I do? Because I think residential real estate agents aren't worth the 6-7% commission and the gig economy companies that employ them (yes, just like Uber) have what amounts to a collusive lock of pricing? Or, is it when self styled conservatives pontificate on tax policy and business practices while collecting a US Government paycheck?  

Excellent likeness, by the way. Thanks.

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10 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I was able to find the motel shooting vid.  Bad move by the officer.  He was basically a dick during the entire time and should be removed.

He should be imprisoned for decades. I don’t think you could design a better set of confusing, contradictory and physically hard to comply with commands if you were trying to engineer an excuse to shoot someone. Staggeringly, he was reinstated and allowed to retire with pension, which doesn’t really reflect well on the PD.

 

In fairness, of the two incidents that shooting of the white guy was worse in the immediate moment, but was also instigated by a report of a deadly weapon. The shooting of the black guy at least involved a struggle, but is at the same time astonishing in the lackadaisical use of a deadly weapon against a person who they had no reason to believe had committed a crime or posed any danger.

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8 minutes ago, jakee said:

He should be imprisoned for decades. I don’t think you could design a better set of confusing, contradictory and physically hard to comply with commands if you were trying to engineer an excuse to shoot someone. Staggeringly, he was reinstated and allowed to retire with pension, which doesn’t really reflect well on the PD.

 

In fairness, of the two incidents that shooting of the white guy was worse in the immediate moment, but was also instigated by a report of a deadly weapon. The shooting of the black guy at least involved a struggle, but is at the same time astonishing in the lackadaisical use of a deadly weapon against a person who they had no reason to believe had committed a crime or posed any danger.

it's only astonishing when you give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are NOT racist.  this is another great example of the passive racism.  when examined under the assumption that they WERE racists, it loses the astonishment factor.

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1 hour ago, sfzombie13 said:

it's only astonishing when you give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are NOT racist.  this is another great example of the passive racism.  when examined under the assumption that they WERE racists, it loses the astonishment factor.

A bit, maybe. I think most racists aren't racist enough to go around shooting people on a whim.

 

I also seem to remember someone recently getting quite angry over the idea of making assumptions about people. 

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4 hours ago, jakee said:

A bit, maybe. I think most racists aren't racist enough to go around shooting people on a whim.

 

I also seem to remember someone recently getting quite angry over the idea of making assumptions about people. 

yeah, that most certainly shouldn't happen, unless absolutely necessary.  i prefer to look at things and judge them on the merit of the thing rather than assume something, then look for evidence to support or debunk it.  starting with an open mind helps a lot of things.  too bad THAT isn't taught in school.

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