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billvon

White privilege example for this week

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29 minutes ago, sfzombie13 said:

pldc, bncoc, and airborne school at benning.  call whatever you want, it happened, sorry i didn't document it for you.  piss off.

ya know what?  they don't even do the same pt test any more and they wear pt uniforms at airborne school now too.  and don't get me started on the timeout cards...

piss off again.

I have to side with Brent on this one given my also 20 years in the Army. And, based on your statement about PT Uniforms at Airborne School we were in about the same time frame.    

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1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

“If you are white take two steps forward”

He never said that. But, I don't like this video for a different reason. The outcome was manipulated. If you know the answers to the questions then of course, you're going to have that type of outcome. We could take the same exact group and ask different questions that produce a completely different result. 

Having said this; you and I have a different frame of reference with a military background. I'm not denying that there is a form of cultural bias in the civilian world, but you and I come from a world where everyone is green and our frame of reference is skewed from those who have not served, and we had to rely on many ethnicities as part of our team and all were held to the same standard. 

Edited by BIGUN

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1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

I have to side with Brent on this one given my also 20 years in the Army. And, based on your statement about PT Uniforms at Airborne School we were in about the same time frame.    

it was when i was in they changed to the pt uniform, have to get records out to see when, but about '00 from what i know.  also, the pldc and bncoc were at ft indiantown gap pa.  national guard, airborne in ft benning, same pt standards i guess, they started the clock when the last person was across the line.

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1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

He never said that. But, I don't like this video for a different reason. The outcome was manipulated. If you know the answers to the questions then of course, you're going to have that type of outcome. We could take the same exact group and ask different questions that produce a completely different result. 

Having said this; you and I have a different frame of reference with a military background. I'm not denying that there is a form of cultural bias in the civilian world, but you and I come from a world where everyone is green and our frame of reference is skewed from those who have not served, and we had to rely on many ethnicities as part of our team and all were held to the same standard. 

 

I only spent 7 years in the Canadian military but I saw White Privilege at play there as well... 

More diversity for the NCO's but almost 100% white male for Officers...

I saw change and improvements in my time there and since, but it took active efforts to recruit differently and there was a huge backlash and criticism when they did so... 

I can see why it would be seen as positive discrimination to try and correct an imbalance, but there is no perfect solution to any problem...

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1 hour ago, sfzombie13 said:

but about '00 from what i know. 

I went to Airborne School in 1980 and we wore the full uniform and boots. When I went back in 1983 for Pathfinder School, they had changed to the PT Uniform.  I asked why the change and it was due to the increase in shin splints. Airborne candidates had been training for the runs in sneakers and when they showed up for school and had to wear boots on the runs, it resulted in shin splints. 

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1 minute ago, BIGUN said:

I went to Airborne School in 1980 and we wore the full uniform and boots. When I went back in 1983 for Pathfinder School, they had changed to the PT Uniform.  I asked why the change and it was due to the increase in shin splints. Airborne candidates had been training for the runs in sneakers and when they showed up for school and had to wear boots on the runs, it resulted in shin splints. 

you know what else you don't see?  national guard units giving a jumpmaster course.  thing is, i was there for that too, an instructor even.  i still have the two t-shirts and the blackhat.  i taught a class on 1306, so that made me an instructor.  i would have gotten my wings too had i not been called back early and missed the jumping part of it.  ya know why you don't often see it?  at jm school, "five oh one, you're done".  unless it's a national guard unit and the battalion commander gets a 5:10, then retests with a 5:03.  they talked about it for a long time, but gave it to him.  i was one of the test jumpers he did the jmpi on. 

you guys should read the book i'm writing when it comes out.  still have to wait til this time next year to publish due to the statute of limitations for mishandling secret documents since i am not trying to get anyone in trouble.  i got a whole lotta stories about things that don't happen, most of them firsthand. 

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3 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Having said this; you and I have a different frame of reference with a military background. I'm not denying that there is a form of cultural bias in the civilian world, but you and I come from a world where everyone is green

I am going to have to call bullshit on that. Might be your perception, but there are plenty of stories of blatant sexism and racism that simply isn't get dealt with in the armed forces. The idea that it is something that doesn't exist is insane.

How many white, male generals. How many BIPOC and/or female generals?

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1 minute ago, SkyDekker said:

I am going to have to call bullshit on that. Might be your perception, but there are plenty of stories of blatant sexism and racism that simply isn't get dealt with in the armed forces. The idea that it is something that doesn't exist is insane.

How many white, male generals. How many BIPOC and/or female generals?

Unless you served in the US Army, I'll see your bullshit and raise you. Your spouting BS you get from elsewhere, not from the trenches. 

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10 minutes ago, sfzombie13 said:

you know what else you don't see?  national guard units giving a jumpmaster course.  thing is, i was there for that too, an instructor even.  i still have the two t-shirts and the blackhat.  i taught a class on 1306, so that made me an instructor.  i would have gotten my wings too had i not been called back early and missed the jumping part of it.  ya know why you don't often see it?  at jm school, "five oh one, you're done".  unless it's a national guard unit and the battalion commander gets a 5:10, then retests with a 5:03.  they talked about it for a long time, but gave it to him.  i was one of the test jumpers he did the jmpi on. 

you guys should read the book i'm writing when it comes out.  still have to wait til this time next year to publish due to the statute of limitations for mishandling secret documents since i am not trying to get anyone in trouble.  i got a whole lotta stories about things that don't happen, most of them firsthand. 

Oh dear Lord. The more you talk, the less I really believe your "military" training.  

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Just now, BIGUN said:

Unless you served in the US Army, I'll see your bullshit and raise you. Your spouting BS you get from elsewhere, not from the trenches. 

This guy was in the armed forces

There have only ever been 2 black men to serve on the Joint Chiefs. Don't think there has ever been a female on the Joint Chiefs.

96 Operational Army Brigades. Only 2 are led by black colonels.

Rest of the statistics are all here

Like I said, the statistics show your comment simply isn't true. White privilege is clearly and demonstrably established in the Armed Forces. Unless you want to argue that black people simply do not have leadership qualities?

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11 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Oh dear Lord. The more you talk, the less I really believe your "military" training.  

wait til the book comes out.  i just cleared it with the last tabbed guy i talk to to make sure nobody would get in trouble.  he came to the dz a few times last year, maybe year before last (covid) but doesn't jump.  another tabbed guy's daughter runs manifest.  you can verify my story with those details if you want to. 

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56 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

This guy was in the armed forces

There have only ever been 2 black men to serve on the Joint Chiefs. Don't think there has ever been a female on the Joint Chiefs.

96 Operational Army Brigades. Only 2 are led by black colonels.

Rest of the statistics are all here

Like I said, the statistics show your comment simply isn't true. White privilege is clearly and demonstrably established in the Armed Forces. Unless you want to argue that black people simply do not have leadership qualities?

You're making my point. "Your spouting BS you get from elsewhere, not from the trenches" 

And what part of the "trenches" don't you get. Did you read the article?  "The U.S. armed forces have great racial and gender diversity at lower ranks" 

Unless you want to argue that black people simply do not have leadership qualities? What a fucked up middle school setup this is - Did you stop beating your wife? I served under more men of ethnicity than you've met in Canada. 

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54 minutes ago, sfzombie13 said:

wait til the book comes out.  i just cleared it with the last tabbed guy i talk to to make sure nobody would get in trouble.  he came to the dz a few times last year, maybe year before last (covid) but doesn't jump.  another tabbed guy's daughter runs manifest.  you can verify my story with those details if you want to. 

What details? That's just more broad generalities. How about you PM me your name, Group, Teams, time, and SFA number and I'll get back with you.

Sincerely,

Tabbed Guy

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7 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

You're making my point. "Your spouting BS you get from elsewhere, not from the trenches" 

And what part of the "trenches" don't you get. Did you read the article?  "The U.S. armed forces have great racial and gender diversity at lower ranks" 

Unless you want to argue that black people simply do not have leadership qualities? What a fucked up middle school setup this is - Did you stop beating your wife? I served under more men of ethnicity than you've met in Canada. 

We are discussing white privilege. White privilege is what allows white people to get out of the trenches more easily than black people. You seemed to argue that this concept didn't exist in the armed forces. Clearly it does.

Your attitude is exactly what stands in the way of progress. The statements you are making are no different than the standard: I have a black friend.

Do better.

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3 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Your attitude is exactly what stands in the way of progress. 

Wrong!  What stands in the way of progress is telling somebody they don’t stand a chance because they’re not white and the deck is stacked against them so why bother even trying.  It becomes a poisonous self fulfilling cycle.

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1 minute ago, brenthutch said:

What stands in the way of progress is telling somebody they don’t stand a chance because they’re not white and the deck is stacked against them so why bother even trying.

Nobody is saying they shouldn't bother. What you are saying is that white privilege doesn't exist. Therefor the lack of black leadership in the armed forces for instance has to be due to something else. What do you think it is?

What would you tell young black people what the reason is they are not represented at the highest leadership?

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Here is a different analogy to beat the dead horse further...

Consider dog breeding.  A narrow set of criteria define the "desirable" traits in a purebred dog. 

These will include things like level of aggression (more or less desirable if a "work" dog vs. a "lap" dog), size (bigger or smaller will be desirable according to the breed - some breeds becoming so small as to have major health issues, because they are just so darned "cute" when they are teeny tiny), colour (in some breeds, blue eyes are unacceptable, in others considered the best colour), et cetera, et cetera, depending on the breed.

Over many many years of selection, a purebred dog's DNA has less and less variation and this results in "beautiful" dogs with "desirable" traits.

I think everyone already sees where I am going with this, but I will take the argument to its end and beat that horse just a little more dead...

---- break for unnecessary emoji: B) ----

Now, the breeders think they are producing the "best dogs".  But are they the best dogs??  Only according to their breeders...!  Comparing them to the dog population at large, purebreds are inbred, weak dogs that wouldn't even survive if they weren't given lots of extra help.  They have health issues that include difficulty breathing (flat face), brittle bones, early dementia, stupidity, and a whole host of other health / psychological problems that are passed down from generation to generation.  There is no diversity in their genes...  But gosh they are pretty!  Nevermind their life expectancy is about 1/3 that of a mutt... 

If the only criteria for a dog is that it should be beautiful...  I suppose to some people, that means a purebred is the best dog. 

If what you really want is to find the best companion, I think you need to consider more things than just "is it beautiful"...  And you also need to look other places to find the right one (ie: not limit yourself to breeders, but also going to the SPCA, shelters, pet stores, the internet, et cetera).  Searching wider will take more effort but you are more likely to end up with the right companion for you (and that might still be a purebred but at least you really considered all the options).

DISCLAIMER - NO FICTITIOUS DOGS OR HORSES WERE HARMED IN THIS ANALOGY

 

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1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

Unless you served in the US Army, I'll see your bullshit and raise you. Your spouting BS you get from elsewhere, not from the trenches. 

You are insane.

 

Air Force investigation finds disparities in how Black and White members are treated

A racial reckoning arrived at West Point, where being black is a ‘beautifully painful experience’

Military leaders promise to address systemic racial disparities in the military justice system

As he tackles extremism, Lloyd Austin draws on military’s experience dealing with 1995 racially motivated murders

"“We woke up one day and discovered that we had extremist elements in our ranks, and they did bad things that we certainly held them accountable for,” Austin said. “But we discovered that the signs for that activity were there all along. We just didn’t know what to look for or what to pay attention to..."

George Reed, who commanded the Army criminal investigation unit at Fort Bragg shortly after the incident, said some commanders had detected neo-Nazi ideology on the base before the incident but, as was common across the Army, they had hoped that military culture and values would ultimately counteract toxic ideas."

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1 minute ago, SkyDekker said:

Nobody is saying they shouldn't bother. What you are saying is that white privilege doesn't exist. Therefor the lack of black leadership in the armed forces for instance has to be due to something else. What do you think it is?

What would you tell young black people what the reason is they are not represented at the highest leadership?

I would tell them if they worked hard they could be the next Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.  Like Colin Powell.

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9 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Wrong!  What stands in the way of progress is telling somebody they don’t stand a chance because they’re not white and the deck is stacked against them so why bother even trying.  It becomes a poisonous self fulfilling cycle.

How convenient that progress requires never admitting that anyone who looks like you did anything to create the current situation, and maintaining that all the problems are due to people who look like them.

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1 minute ago, Nataly said:

DISCLAIMER - NO FICTITIOUS DOGS OR HORSES WERE HARMED IN THIS ANALOGY

 

No but you sure put a hurting on logic:rofl:

There ARE traits that predict success, they include but are not limited to: self reliance, competitiveness, work ethic (I left out the Protestant part), objective rational thinking, high valuation of success and wealth, adherence to time schedules, delayed gratification and the nuclear family.  
 

Notice I did not mention skin tone.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

No but you sure put a hurting on logic:rofl:

There ARE traits that predict success, they include but are not limited to: self reliance, competitiveness, work ethic (I left out the Protestant part), objective rational thinking, high valuation of success and wealth, adherence to time schedules, delayed gratification and the nuclear family.  
 

Notice I did not mention skin tone.

 

 

 

It's ok, I don't expect everyone to recognise good logic.  ^_^

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1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

What details? That's just more broad generalities. How about you PM me your name, Group, Teams, time, and SFA number and I'll get back with you.

Sincerely,

Tabbed Guy

the picture is straight from my 201 file.  since you were nice, i figured it couldn't hurt.

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