Time to just drop the COVID relief payments...

[airdvr 197]

13 minutes ago, rifleman said:

And yet, the evidence is there that paying money to people at the bottom of the economic ladder actually stimulates the economy more than giving tax breaks to billionaires. This video was produced on behalf of the UK Labour party a few years ago.

 

While it might temporarily stimulate the economy it does little good long term.  

We're already "stimulating" the economy monthly.  The very reason I avoid going to the local WalMart around the first of the month.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

9 minutes ago, airdvr said:

While it might temporarily stimulate the economy it does little good long term.  

We're already "stimulating" the economy monthly.  The very reason I avoid going to the local WalMart around the first of the month.

But you just love shopping there for cheap Chinese imports the other 29 day's each month? You don't need to go there at all, you know, even if it's so close and so convenient. Just hop in the ol' gas guzzler and head for any Mom and Pop joint. Sure, it'll cost more and might also not be exactly what you want and, yes, your monthly expenses will go up. But you will be buying American, supporting your local economy and warming a cold hearted planet with more CO2. Best of all you'll be acting in conformance with your beliefs. Wouldn't that be fun?

[Phil1111 908]

13 minutes ago, airdvr said:

While it might temporarily stimulate the economy it does little good long term.  

We're already "stimulating" the economy monthly.  The very reason I avoid going to the local WalMart around the first of the month.

I know it would be humiliating for a top realtor to shop at Walmart when Sachs 5th ave is the usual stop.

[airdvr 197]

We shop for groceries there.  It's practically across the street.  I typically don't buy any other goods there.  Sorry to disappoint you.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

13 minutes ago, airdvr said:

We shop for groceries there.  It's practically across the street.  I typically don't buy any other goods there.  Sorry to disappoint you.

You never disappoint me, don't worry. So, just how do you suppose they are able to afford those deep discounts on your Twinkies and Diet Dr. Pepper? Hint: fucking over small retailers by demanding giant discounts from suppliers and subsidizing the rest with profits from cheap Chinese imports. But it is almost across the street so you get a pass, right?

[airdvr 197]

2 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

You never disappoint me, don't worry. So, just how do you suppose they are able to afford those deep discounts on your Twinkies and Diet Dr. Pepper? Hint: fucking over small retailers by demanding giant discounts from suppliers and subsidizing the rest with profits from cheap Chinese imports. But it is almost across the street so you get a pass, right?

There are 3 grocers close by.  All are big chains.  Where would you be more comfortable with me shopping Joe?  Ya know I'm concerned that you aren't upset with me.

[airdvr 197]

25 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

I know it would be humiliating for a top realtor to shop at Walmart when Sachs 5th ave is the usual stop.

The problem is crowd size.

[wmw999 2,116]

Well, consider the accusations that could be thrown about carbon footprint by going farther...  not that people would, just that it could. 
And airdvr, locally we have a co op, and a regional as opposed to national chain, as well as the ubiquitous Walmart and (across the freeway) a Whole Foods. So it’s 90% or more at the food op and regional chain, with most of the rest at a couple of locally owned food stores.  I don’t go to multiple stores for a single trip, just try to bunch stuff for convenience. 
But this is a community that actively supports local businesses; it wasn’t that way when I lived in suburban Houston. Not everyone is as lucky as we are  

Wendy P. 

[JoeWeber 2,294]

5 minutes ago, airdvr said:

There are 3 grocers close by.  All are big chains.  Where would you be more comfortable with me shopping Joe?  Ya know I'm concerned that you aren't upset with me.

Don't go close by or just make an attempt to see that you are a part of the problem of keeping poor people poor. 

[airdvr 197]

2 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Don't go close by or just make an attempt to see that you are a part of the problem of keeping poor people poor. 

Oh man, how will I sleep tonight knowing that I'm keeping poor people poor?

[yoink 321]

Edited to check some numbers

Edited February 3, 2021 by yoink

[kallend 1,620]

2 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Oh man, how will I sleep tonight knowing that I'm keeping poor people poor?

The "I'm all right, Jack. . ." people like you have no trouble doing that. They even elected one of their own to be president in 2016.  

[JoeWeber 2,294]

3 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Oh man, how will I sleep tonight knowing that I'm keeping poor people poor?

Normally, is my guess. You'll continue to turn a blind eye to facts like Walmart employees taking billions of dollars in public assistance-food stamps, medicaid, etc-to support your need to pretend there is no societal cost. That's OK but extended unemployment pay, or a lousy 1000 bucks, during a world wide pandemic is just plain awful. And tomorrow you will wake up disbelieving that the money a government gives to it's starving and needy, especially when it can be borrowed at next to zero interest, will circulate up to you. 

[airdvr 197]

I never lose sight of just how fortunate I am to have the life I have.  As much as you'd like me to feel guilty of my accomplishments rest assured that I won't.  We pay taxes...a lot of taxes.  Have been for most of my life and yet the government doesn't seem to be able to solve the problem by giving people more money.

[airdvr 197]

Just now, JoeWeber said:

Normally, is my guess. You'll continue to turn a blind eye to facts like Walmart employees taking billions of dollars in public assistance-food stamps, medicaid, etc-to support your need to pretend there is no societal cost. That's OK but extended unemployment pay, or a lousy 1000 bucks, during a world wide pandemic is just plain awful. And tomorrow you will wake up disbelieving that the money a government gives to it's starving and needy, especially when it can be borrowed at next to zero interest, will circulate up to you. 

Please find where I have said payments to those in need because of the pandemic is a bad thing.  What I'm saying is the payments are missing the mark.  People are getting them that don't really need it.

Extended unemployment?  No problem however, when the unemployment add on was $600 Rox had real trouble finding people who needed a job.

[BIGUN 1,049]

The multiplier effect, developed by Keynes’s student Richar Kahn, is one of the chief components of Keynesian countercyclical fiscal policy. According to Keynes's theory of fiscal stimulus, an injection of government spending eventually leads to added business activity and even more spending. This theory proposes that spending boosts aggregate output and generates more income. If workers are willing to spend their extra income, the resulting growth in the gross domestic product( GDP) could be even greater than the initial stimulus amount. 

The magnitude of the Keynesian multiplier is directly related to the marginal propensity to consume. Its concept is simple. Spending from one consumer becomes income for a business that then spends on equipment, worker wages, energy, materials, purchased services, taxes and investor returns. That worker's income can then be spent and the cycle continues. Keynes and his followers believed individuals should save less and spend more, raising their marginal propensity to consume to effect full employment and economic growth.

In this theory, one dollar spent in fiscal stimulus eventually creates more than one dollar in growth.* This appeared to be a coup for government economists, who could provide justification for politically popular spending projects on a national scale.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/k/keynesianeconomics.asp#:~:text=Keynesian economics is a macroeconomic,to understand the Great Depression.

* NOTE: It's actually seven dollars that is not only generated, but can be taxed as it moves thru the economic chain.

EDIT: Keynesian theorists believe the only savings should be for retirement and education.

Edited February 3, 2021 by BIGUN

[gowlerk 1,903]

1 hour ago, airdvr said:

While it might temporarily stimulate the economy it does little good long term.  

The idea is to prevent long term harm. 

[JoeWeber 2,294]

8 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Please find where I have said payments to those in need because of the pandemic is a bad thing.  What I'm saying is the payments are missing the mark.  People are getting them that don't really need it.

Extended unemployment?  No problem however, when the unemployment add on was $600 Rox had real trouble finding people who needed a job.

If you are going to use your wife's travel business as an example you will need to give some specific detail. Was she trying to fill part time or temporary jobs? What was the wage offered? Benefits? Seasonal? 

[gowlerk 1,903]

9 minutes ago, airdvr said:

What I'm saying is the payments are missing the mark.  People are getting them that don't really need it.

Absolutely true. It is an imperfect system. Perfection is not possible so we must settle for good. The same sort of thing is going on in Canada. The details are different. 

[airdvr 197]

3 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

If you are going to use your wife's travel business as an example you will need to give some specific detail. Was she trying to fill part time or temporary jobs? What was the wage offered? Benefits? Seasonal? 

Not the travel biz.  This was where she worked.  The job offered is care of DD clients.  Toileting, feeding, bathing etc.  Not a job most would aspire to.  But because it is Medicaid funded the available dollars are tight.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

1 minute ago, airdvr said:

Not the travel biz.  This was where she worked.  The job offered is care of DD clients.  Toileting, feeding, bathing etc.  Not a job most would aspire to.  But because it is Medicaid funded the available dollars are tight.

Excellent. So you are on board with increased Medicaid payments to provide a decent wage for bed pan emptiers? Out of curiosity, how much would you need an hour for that sort of work? If it's easier, how much do you think it should pay anyone? If you stumble too much with answers just say how much you think I should get. That should be easy.

[airdvr 197]

I am absolutely on board with increasing the wages of the people who take care of the disabled.  Not certain what compensation package they offer but it only needs to be competitive.

I can say that the only asses I've ever wiped, other than my own were my 2 kids.  I'd love to see you doing it.

[Phil1111 908]

14 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

The multiplier effect, developed by Keynes’s student Richar Kahn,...

EDIT: Keynesian theorists believe the only savings should be for retirement and education.

Yes that is the cornerstone of GOP tax cuts over the last forty years. Which suggests cuts in taxation will result in more money in the pockets of the rich. As they are the ones most often targeted by the legislation for the reduced taxation benefits. They will spend and reinvest those tax savings resulting in the supposed multiplier effect. All of which in the end benefits the poor.

Like all economic theory its an idea on how economies function. As compared to the economic policy whereby sending money directly to the problem that needs address is most effective. i.e. welfare payments. The GOP has painted Keynesianism as the answer to all. When neither is perfect.

[BIGUN 1,049]

2 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Yes that is the cornerstone of GOP tax cuts over the last forty years. Which suggests cuts in taxation will result in more money in the pockets of the rich.

That is an opinion piece that is 100% wrong about Keynesian economics. 

[Phil1111 908]

24 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

That is an opinion piece that is 100% wrong about Keynesian economics. 

If so here is an editorial from the Economist that states the same thing. The Economist article lists no name of the author so its from the editorial board of that group. They tend to be correct when discussing economic theory and policy.

"IT IS a central principle of Keynesian economics that governments should stimulate demand during recessions by cutting taxes and boosting spending. Conversely, when times are good and unemployment is low, budgets should be kept in check. However, these conventional counter-cyclical prescriptions seem to hold little sway with White House policymakers. In his first year in office, Donald Trump has turned Keynes on his head, pushing through a massive fiscal stimulus during America’s second-longest economic expansion in history."

Don't confuse pure theory with how the GOP has morphed that thinking into raw stimulus and a multiplier effect. Whereby no taxes and massive stimulus solves all problems.

Income inequality in the U.S. is the highest of all the G7 nations, according to data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

The wealth gap between America’s richest and poorer families more than doubled from 1989 to 2016,

The PEW article where the above two findings are quoted from. Its no coincidence that Reganeconomics, a new definition in economic policy started with President Regan in 1989. Demand side theory and supply side theory have been turned upside down by the GOP. That was the point I was attempting to make.