100jumpwonder 0 #1 July 11, 2014 Could you clarify the procedure in the following situations: - Bag lock (cut away then reserve) - Pilot chute in tow (pull reserve? Don't cut away?) - Horse shoe with pilot chute stowed (pull main -> if it doesn't clear then cut away and reserve) - Horse shoe with pilot chute entangled round leg (try to free pilot chute if altitude remains otherwise... just pull reserve?) - Total failure -> Do I cut away? Or just pull reserve? Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #2 July 11, 2014 How many jumps do you have? Because the answer to some of those is experience dependent. If you've just started jumping, then the answer is 'do what you were taught to do'. For experienced jumpers, some people modify their EPs or have multiple procedures depending on the situation. But you have to have the experience and judgement to be able to make that call when stuff's going wrong.... that's why typically, students are taught the simplest solutions. 1) At hard deck. Pull reserve. 2) If entangled above hard deck, untangle yourself first, then full EPs. 3) All other scenarios, Pull red, then silver. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ridebmxbikes 0 #3 July 11, 2014 Check out the cutaway series on youtube by "APFskydiver". They have a great review of malfunctions with video. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
100jumpwonder 0 #4 July 11, 2014 Thanks. I watched the video. I only have 24 jumps. In the video they emphasise following the same emergency procedures every time and immediately which is wise... however in some situations such as 'hard pull' they still suggest cutting away which seems odd to me. Also for the horse shoe with the pilot chute still stowed they recommend cutting away and pulling the reserve. If I had altitude (e.g. above 2000) I would want pull the main first. I would be scared of an entanglement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #5 July 11, 2014 100jumpwonder Also for the horse shoe with the pilot chute still stowed they recommend cutting away and pulling the reserve. If I had altitude (e.g. above 2000) I would want pull the main first. I would be scared of an entanglement. And this is why it's a really good idea to have a fair bit of experience before changing your EPs... You may not have thought of everything. Do you REALLY want to put your hand into an area with lines and risers whipping all over the place? What happens if you get a wrap around your right hand, now you've turned a high speed mal horseshoe with a a simple decision tree into a high speed entanglement and horseshoe... now what? Despite that risk some folk will do as you suggest, but I'm using it as an example to REALLY think through the process of altering your EPs before you do it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alexg3265 0 #6 July 11, 2014 Route your bridle out the top end of the pilot chute (same side, when folded, as handle). Instead of out the opposite end as the handle. What this does is allow the bridle to easily slide out when pulled and it makes a horseshoe pretty much impossible. If it comes out the bottom when pulled, it binds up the pilot chute effectively locking it in. Pin checks and being mindful of what you're leaning on goes a long way towards keeping that pin in. Here's a video on pilot chute packing... Thanks to mr Germain http://youtu.be/axCeYlY_6ioI was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ridebmxbikes 0 #7 July 11, 2014 Say if you have a hard pull, you have one of two scenarios. You cutaway first and if your main comes out by chance you lose your main or have a more difficult time finding it. If you dont cutaway and you main by chance comes out you now have main delpoying into your reserve. May end up being a two out or may end up being a main/reserve entanglement. when everything goes to hell, im pulling the safe card! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,232 #8 July 12, 2014 At this point in your skydiving; is there any reason to be going through any number of algorithms at terminal velocity after you passed through your pull altitude other than - cutaway and pull?Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NPower 0 #9 July 13, 2014 100jumpwonderThanks. I watched the video. I only have 24 jumps. In the video they emphasise following the same emergency procedures every time and immediately which is wise... however in some situations such as 'hard pull' they still suggest cutting away which seems odd to me. Also for the horse shoe with the pilot chute still stowed they recommend cutting away and pulling the reserve. If I had altitude (e.g. above 2000) I would want pull the main first. I would be scared of an entanglement. This video is designed for APF AFF students on their first day ground training, before their first jump. I was told by instructors that for this reason, given the target audience, a simple and consistent set of instructions was especially important. So that's why there is no deviation in procedures for dealing with something that could be argued 'fixable' like a horseshoe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
the_raven 0 #10 July 14, 2014 ridebmxbikesSay if you have a hard pull, you have one of two scenarios. You cutaway first and if your main comes out by chance you lose your main or have a more difficult time finding it. If you dont cutaway and you main by chance comes out you now have main delpoying into your reserve. May end up being a two out or may end up being a main/reserve entanglement. when everything goes to hell, im pulling the safe card! It's also possible that if you cutaway first, you can still have a main/reserve entanglement. Just because you've cutaway does not guarantee that the main will clear your reserve. IMO, I would say the risk of a main/reserve entanglement is about the same regardless of which EP tree you go down. If the main does find clean air, then in 1 scenario you have a 2 out, in the other your main separates clean - in my mind that's really what you're looking at dealing with when deciding one ep vs the other. My choice is to keep the cutaway as a second option after the fact. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ShotterMG 0 #11 July 15, 2014 yoink *** Also for the horse shoe with the pilot chute still stowed they recommend cutting away and pulling the reserve. If I had altitude (e.g. above 2000) I would want pull the main first. I would be scared of an entanglement. And this is why it's a really good idea to have a fair bit of experience before changing your EPs... You may not have thought of everything. Do you REALLY want to put your hand into an area with lines and risers whipping all over the place? What happens if you get a wrap around your right hand, now you've turned a high speed mal horseshoe with a a simple decision tree into a high speed entanglement and horseshoe... now what? Despite that risk some folk will do as you suggest, but I'm using it as an example to REALLY think through the process of altering your EPs before you do it. Actually, 100 jump wonder, this is a classic case of why you shouldn't seek skydiving advice on the internet. You happen to be absolutely right. Both Yoink and Bigun are absolutely wrong. A horseshoe map of the type you are suggesting is very serious. Firing your reserve into that mess, cutaway or not, will be a crap shoot. On the other hand, clearing your pilot chute will give you a good chance for a normal deployment. And if it comes out like shit, you then have emergency procedures that will be effective. Therefor, this is the one exception to the "try twice" rule. If you haven't thrown your pilot chute, and you feel your bag bumping around on your back, you MUST try and clear the pilot chute right up until your hard deck. There is no algorithm or decision tree. It is just a scenario that a person must learn and practice to be a skydiver. Sure, whenever possible it makes sense to keep EP's simple and consistent. But you don't do that at the cost of reducing your chances of survival by such a wide margin. Ask your instructors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #12 July 15, 2014 100jumpwonder - Bag lock (cut away then reserve) -YES - Pilot chute in tow (pull reserve? Don't cut away?)- Both answers are approved by the USPA. There are some very strong opinions both ways. You can damn near start a bar fight with this question... - Horse shoe with pilot chute stowed (pull main -> if it doesn't clear then cut away and reserve) -YES - Horse shoe with pilot chute entangled round leg (try to free pilot chute if altitude remains otherwise... just pull reserve?)- I train 2 tries to clear, then cutaway and pull reserve. (similar to pilot-chute-in-pouch above) - Total failure -> Do I cut away? Or just pull reserve?- I just pull reserve, but my DZ trains new jumpers to cutaway, then pull reserve to keep it simple. Lots of debate both ways. If you have 100 jumps, I think you're experienced enough to decide for yourself. I hope that's of some help. Many an angry debate has erupted over some of those questions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #13 July 15, 2014 BIGUNAt this point in your skydiving; is there any reason to be going through any number of algorithms at terminal velocity after you passed through your pull altitude other than - cutaway and pull? I was trained from day 1 to not waste time cutting away from a total. At 65 jumps I transitioned to a piggy back rig with a square and had to retrain my EP's. Proper preplanning and training can make a decision tree seem instinctual. I've had one friend bounce on a total with the cutaway pulled and the reserve in the pocket. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #14 July 15, 2014 100jumpwonder I only have 24 jumps. - Forget what I said about if you had 100 jumps. In the video they emphasise following the same emergency procedures every time and immediately which is wise... however in some situations such as 'hard pull' they still suggest cutting away which seems odd to me. - Me too. Some think all procedures should be dumbed down to a lower level. Also for the horse shoe with the pilot chute still stowed they recommend cutting away and pulling the reserve. If I had altitude (e.g. above 2000) I would want pull the main first. I would be scared of an entanglement. - I agree, but the tension on the bridle can jam the pilot chute in the pouch, making extraction difficult. I'd go with the "two tries to fix, then cutaay and pull reserve." Definitely not a fun situation. Also, there are ways to pack the pilot chute that are supposed to make it jam resistant in this scenario. I admire your research into all this. I lived thru the era when much of this was brand new and we were figuring it out as we went. Make sure to consult with some of the more experienced instructors at your DZ though, please. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,232 #15 July 15, 2014 ShotterMG ****** Also for the horse shoe with the pilot chute still stowed they recommend cutting away and pulling the reserve. If I had altitude (e.g. above 2000) I would want pull the main first. I would be scared of an entanglement. And this is why it's a really good idea to have a fair bit of experience before changing your EPs... You may not have thought of everything. Do you REALLY want to put your hand into an area with lines and risers whipping all over the place? What happens if you get a wrap around your right hand, now you've turned a high speed mal horseshoe with a a simple decision tree into a high speed entanglement and horseshoe... now what? Despite that risk some folk will do as you suggest, but I'm using it as an example to REALLY think through the process of altering your EPs before you do it. Actually, 100 jump wonder, this is a classic case of why you shouldn't seek skydiving advice on the internet. You happen to be absolutely right. Both Yoink and Bigun are absolutely wrong. A horseshoe map of the type you are suggesting is very serious. Firing your reserve into that mess, cutaway or not, will be a crap shoot. On the other hand, clearing your pilot chute will give you a good chance for a normal deployment. And if it comes out like shit, you then have emergency procedures that will be effective. Therefor, this is the one exception to the "try twice" rule. If you haven't thrown your pilot chute, and you feel your bag bumping around on your back, you MUST try and clear the pilot chute right up until your hard deck. There is no algorithm or decision tree. It is just a scenario that a person must learn and practice to be a skydiver. Sure, whenever possible it makes sense to keep EP's simple and consistent. But you don't do that at the cost of reducing your chances of survival by such a wide margin. Ask your instructors. Before you start getting all mouthy... He addressed the solution for each EP situation and was asking about. "after having done these" As in, "And then." Next time you post some negative shit about someone; have the fucking balls to PM them the hyperlink.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #16 July 15, 2014 ShotterMG On the other hand, clearing your pilot chute will give you a good chance for a normal deployment. And if it comes out like shit, you then have emergency procedures that will be effective. Therefor, this is the one exception to the "try twice" rule. If you haven't thrown your pilot chute, and you feel your bag bumping around on your back, you MUST try and clear the pilot chute right up until your hard deck. Sure, whenever possible it makes sense to keep EP's simple and consistent. But you don't do that at the cost of reducing your chances of survival by such a wide margin. Ask your instructors. I can pretty much agree with that. If you have the time, work the problem, but remain altitude aware. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites