Trackers after tandems?

[cbassmnm 4]

Hello, just wondering if it is the norm or not uncommon for tracking groups to exit very last, after tandems?

I had a 4 way track which I was leading, and the other 3 jumpers were all a little over 100 jumps.  I have 900 jumps and almost 9 years in the sport, with 3-4 tracking /angle camps.  Had a good flight plan for this jump.

I was informed by the s&ta that tracking groups exit last after tandems.  I had never heard this before but did follow directions.  We were the only fun jumpers on the load, and then tandems.

They were worried about the less experienced tracking up jump run, understandably.    During the dive, I could see all the tandems open and flying in the distance, about 5-6 k feet.  Seems they could track down jumprun into the higher opening tandems just as easily. 

Thoughts?

 

 

[sfzombie13 307]

page 109 of the sim has exit order and it shows tracking jumps going after tandems.  i have no experience of this to add to that.

 

i found some links that explain it though.  seems some do it differently. 

Edited January 31, 2021 by sfzombie13

[cbassmnm 4]

Thanks for the info.  I’ll check into the latest sim 

[base615 77]

At my DZ (in Australia), movement groups (Wingsuit, tracking, angles) all either get out first and move down the jump run or last and move up the jump run. IMO, I think it should always be perpendicular to the jump run but I'm not in a position to argue with the rules :)

[Deimian 43]

Tracking or angle jumps are always a bit "polemic". In Belgium we put them either first or "last of the fun jumpers" (ie: before the AFF and tandems.).

If they go first the can go either right, left, or go in a 180° direction.

If they go "last of the fun jumpers" they have to go either 90° right or left, depending on what the winds are doing. Since the opening altitude is very different between trackers and AFF and tandems, in case of mistakes you have at least added vertical separation besides the horizontal separation. Admittedly not ideal for AFF instructors, so I tend to put new trackers first in the load when I am organizing, and make them very very very clear that they should turn at least 90°. New trackers tend to track flat, so that matches also nicely with the fall rate of the belly flyers afterwards.

If they are competent, you can put them anywhere. They will track perpendicular to jump run and that's it. But not every one is as competent as they think.

Wingsuits should always be last IMO. Due to their fall rate they'll never be close to anybody else (unless they go down jumprun and there is a premature opening), and that has the added benefit of declogging the landing area, as they will land a few minutes after the first group. If you put them first the chances of a mid-air collision is higher, but also you are congesting the landing area.

[sfzombie13 307]

10 hours ago, base615 said:

At my DZ (in Australia), movement groups (Wingsuit, tracking, angles) all either get out first and move down the jump run or last and move up the jump run. IMO, I think it should always be perpendicular to the jump run but I'm not in a position to argue with the rules :)

we expect everything to be upside down in austrailia, so that isn't surprising.

[nwt 131]

5 hours ago, Deimian said:

New trackers tend to track flat,

I'm just a noob with only a few dedicated tracking jumps, but isn't this the objective? (as opposed to angle)

[cbassmnm 4]

Out of all the tracking jumps i've done up to this point, this was the first getting out after the tandems.  If this is the way of doing things now, that's what I'll do.     in the past it has been first group out.  

Since getting out last means furthest from the DZ, "getting back" may be more tricky.

Yes, all tracking jumps should be led perpendicular to jump run a safe distance before any more navigating.  

 

 

[Deimian 43]

21 hours ago, nwt said:

I'm just a noob with only a few dedicated tracking jumps, but isn't this the objective? (as opposed to angle)

Flat tracking is what you should do on separation, absolutely. My point is that almost nobody experienced is doing full flat tracking jumps anymore. The only people that I am aware of that do flat tracking jumps, are new skydivers that can't (and shouldn't) do steeper angles. In this time and age every tracker worth their salt moved into angle flying and steeper angles.

[nwt 131]

2 hours ago, Deimian said:

Flat tracking is what you should do on separation, absolutely. My point is that almost nobody experienced is doing full flat tracking jumps anymore. 

Sure, most of them are doing angles. Maybe there are geographical differences, but I've never seen an angle group call themselves a tracking group. Movement, maybe.

[sfzombie13 307]

2 hours ago, Deimian said:

Flat tracking is what you should do on separation, absolutely. My point is that almost nobody experienced is doing full flat tracking jumps anymore. The only people that I am aware of that do flat tracking jumps, are new skydivers that can't (and shouldn't) do steeper angles. In this time and age every tracker worth their salt moved into angle flying and steeper angles.

i've been on a couple of tracking jumps.  they do them all the time at my dz, but i recall them being very flat, and hard for me to keep up since i am new.  one time, todd tracked way past the dz and landed on the golf course, hole 14. 

[RolandForbes 41]

I've heard such mixed things about this. I believe that it's best for trackers to go second to last before wingsuiters. With that said I got yelled at by a salty ass organizer named Chazi at Lost Prairie this past year for even asking about this, so who knows. 

Apparently everyone at Eloy knows best 

Edited February 3, 2021 by RolandForbes

[20kN 93]

On 1/31/2021 at 10:02 PM, base615 said:

At my DZ (in Australia), movement groups (Wingsuit, tracking, angles) all either get out first and move down the jump run or last and move up the jump run. IMO, I think it should always be perpendicular to the jump run but I'm not in a position to argue with the rules :)

Wingsuits should never exit first except under highly specific conditions by experienced wingsuiters doing something very specific that requires it. All it would take is for some inexperienced wingsuiters to get turned around and now they are flying directly under the entire load which could easily become fatal. In general, movement groups go last. Sometimes trackers will go out first which is okay if they are slick tracking and they stick to their plan. Tracksuiters and wingsuiters should awlays exit after tandems.

 

[base615 77]

11 minutes ago, 20kN said:

Wingsuits should never exit first except under highly specific conditions by experienced wingsuiters doing something very specific that requires it. All it would take is for some inexperienced wingsuiters to get turned around and now they are flying directly under the entire load which could easily become fatal. In general, movement groups go last. Sometimes trackers will go out first which is okay if they are slick tracking and they stick to their plan. Tracksuiters and wingsuiters should awlays exit after tandems.

 

Yeah, confused what I wrote by bunching them all together in the brackets. Tracking / angles first or last, wing/tracksuiters always last.

[chuckakers 370]

It would seem to me that from a safety perspective it shouldn't matter under most circumstances whether the movement group goes before or after tandems as long as they fly away - perpendicular-ish - from the jump run line of flight.

Could it be that it's preferable to have experienced jumpers land off than tandems?

[JoeWeber 2,294]

5 hours ago, chuckakers said:

It would seem to me that from a safety perspective it shouldn't matter under most circumstances whether the movement group goes before or after tandems as long as they fly away - perpendicular-ish - from the jump run line of flight.

Could it be that it's preferable to have experienced jumpers land off than tandems?

It's really simple, Chuck, free flyers do not look down. Of course that includes angle/movement groups. Belly flyers sometimes sometimes do and Tandems always do. The big reality is that upjumpers are generally willing to risk an off DZ landing, apologies to follow. The other reality is that a lot of us aren't as dialed in at what we do as we think we are so there is the constant risk of someone below us in freefall. So, any smart exit order try to limit any potential freefall collisions or off DZ landings to us, not Tandems. 

[wmw999 2,116]

This, along with the fact that we're supposed to be taking care of tandems, along with taking care of ourselves. That means accepting the risks that go along with skydiving, while protecting the tanderms as much as we can from them.

And landing off isn't that big a deal most places. Don't panic, and understand it won't be desirable regardless. Neither is getting hurt.

Wendy P.