Stumpy 253 #351 November 18, 2021 8 hours ago, SkyDekker said: Yes, yes....that was the "joke". ah sorry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,362 #352 November 22, 2021 Tell the bank your property is worth $527M, then tell the tax officials it is worth $16.7M? Seems legit. WaPo: N.Y. prosecutors set sights on new Trump target: Widely different valuations on the same properties Disable Javascript on that website to read the article. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,354 #353 November 22, 2021 3 hours ago, ryoder said: Tell the bank your property is worth $527M, then tell the tax officials it is worth $16.7M? Seems legit. My guess on what we will hear from him: "I didn't do it." "Witch hunt." "Everyone does it. No big deal." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,098 #354 November 22, 2021 8 minutes ago, billvon said: "Everyone does it. No big deal." The first part of that sentence is correct. Whether it is a big deal is really going to depend on more than just the delta between the values. Every developer has different appraised values for different purposes and under different scenarios and it isn't all nefarious. Let's say I have an acre lot, currently zoned residential with a renter in the single 2 bedroom house on the property. For property tax purposes, that value assessment is going to be based on those parameters and get to a pretty modest value. Now, let's say I am going to the bank for financing purposes. I may want to try and sell them the dream. The dream of zoning to commercial and getting a density lift to maybe 5.0fsr. Now I have the potential to develop 217,800 square feet of high end office space, a much larger income potential and therefor a much higher value for my same 1 acre of land. Not saying that is the case here at all. But just because two valuation got to two wildly different values for the same plot of land doesn't mean anything nefarious happened. And yes, everybody does that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,362 #355 November 23, 2021 Two lawyers who challenged 2020 election ordered to pay Dominion, Facebook A federal judge in Colorado on Monday ordered two lawyers who brought an unsuccessful lawsuit challenging the 2020 election results to pay more than $186,000 to cover the legal fees of the groups they sued, including Facebook (now Meta) and Dominion Voting Systems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 896 #356 November 23, 2021 On 11/22/2021 at 1:58 PM, SkyDekker said: The first part of that sentence is correct. Whether it is a big deal is really going to depend on more than just the delta between the values. Every developer has different appraised values for different purposes and under different scenarios and it isn't all nefarious. Let's say I have an acre lot, currently zoned residential with a renter in the single 2 bedroom house on the property. For property tax purposes, that value assessment is going to be based on those parameters and get to a pretty modest value. Now, let's say I am going to the bank for financing purposes. I may want to try and sell them the dream. The dream of zoning to commercial and getting a density lift to maybe 5.0fsr. Now I have the potential to develop 217,800 square feet of high end office space, a much larger income potential and therefor a much higher value for my same 1 acre of land. Not saying that is the case here at all. But just because two valuation got to two wildly different values for the same plot of land doesn't mean anything nefarious happened. And yes, everybody does that. I have yet to meet any bankers that will lend someone else's money on a "dream". Any appraisal is done by a "professional" and that opinion of value is based upon comparable properties that have sold recently. There are appraisals done by certified appraisers and ones done by realtors. Banks and other mortgage lenders will not accept a realtors opinion(appraisal) for lending purposes. They need to document everything in case of audit. For the purposes of property tax appeals. Sometimes the appeals tax clerks may accept a realtors opinion. But they have their own appraisers as well. A "appraised value" of a marketing plan for a future property development is just that. Its based upon something that doesn't presently exist. Cost overruns, delays in construction, unexpected financing costs, etc. Can all push development costs from a profit to a loss. In addition an "appraisal" based upon rezoning runs the risk of failing the change of zoning. Of rezoning appeals. Thats why lenders of such projects would never advance funds for construction or even purchase of such properties without built in equity protections for their lending positions. All through the development process. The legal drafts and finalized terms from a lawyer for such lending can easily run to $50,000. i.e. rezoning agricultural land to condominium. All borne by the property developer. So if a proposed property redevelopment plan can't get a loan for that "appraised" price without substantial equity guarantees. Through the secured liens on secondary properties. Or other substantial financial guarantees. Its not an appraisal. Its not a dream. Its a proposed development plan and without a good track record of success in similar developments. Bankers can be dream killers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,098 #357 November 23, 2021 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Phil1111 said: I have yet to meet any bankers that will lend someone else's money on a "dream". Any appraisal is done by a "professional" and that opinion of value is based upon comparable properties that have sold recently. Not it isn't. Other than the comparison approach, there are other ways to look at the value of a real estate asset. Cost approach and Income approach being the most common. 45 minutes ago, Phil1111 said: Thats why lenders of such projects would never advance funds for construction or even purchase of such properties without built in equity protections for their lending positions. You are correct that there are very few real estate loans without collateral. I think that's what you are getting at? And yes, depending on your balance sheet, cross collateralization is definitely something that is done. But, land loans, development facilities and construction loans are most certainly based on a bit of "educated fantasy". If you think there is no difference between an "as-is" and "as-if" appraisal, then you are simply wrong. Edited November 23, 2021 by SkyDekker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 896 #358 November 23, 2021 1 hour ago, SkyDekker said: Not it isn't. Other than the comparison approach, there are other ways to look at the value of a real estate asset. Cost approach and Income approach being the most common.... Both of which are used for existing real property. Not proposed developments. Because final costs are unknown for future proposed developments. Only proposed or anticipated costs. Income approach is the same. Until a property is occupied there is no income. Only anticipated occupancy rates and proposed. incomes. 1 hour ago, SkyDekker said: ...If you think there is no difference between an "as-is" and "as-if" appraisal, then you are simply wrong. Which is why engineering reports, architectural reports stating the percentage of project completion and costs of completed construction. Are standard accompanying, supporting documents for such reports. In addition standard boilerplate statement(s) such as "“The values reported herein are based on data collected and reviewed as of the date of this report. The appraiser assumes no responsibility for unforeseeable events that alter market conditions prior to the Effective Date of this Report.” To cover their asses. bankers in turn only advance funds in proportion to the lending agreement. bringing this back to trump. The alleged fraud involved existing properties with two appraisals. The intent of which was to obtain fraudulent advantage in lending or to avoid and defraud taxation authorities. Not proposed developments. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,098 #359 November 24, 2021 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Phil1111 said: Not proposed developments. Because final costs are unknown for future proposed developments. Only proposed or anticipated costs. Income approach is the same. Until a property is occupied there is no income. Only anticipated occupancy rates and proposed. incomes. Right, so to get to an appraised development value you (very simplified) estimate cost to build, you estimate income then you estimate cap rates to back into an appraised residual value. That appraisal is most certainly asked for when discussing financing with lenders. You play with these numbers because the investor and lender are looking for a decent lift in land values in pre and post development. However, the city often levies development and other fees based on a percentage of that land lift, which means that you want to work with an appraisers very differently to get to different starting and ending values. Setting a value for real estate is far, far, far from an exact science. 43 minutes ago, Phil1111 said: Which is why engineering reports, architectural reports stating the percentage of project completion and costs of completed construction. Are standard accompanying, supporting documents for such reports. In addition standard boilerplate statement(s) such as "“The values reported herein are based on data collected and reviewed as of the date of this report. The appraiser assumes no responsibility for unforeseeable events that alter market conditions prior to the Effective Date of this Report.” You seem to be talking about a financing draw on a construction process, that is related, yet completely different. For me that is often the third credit facility in the process. Start with a land loan, gets taken out by a development facility, gets taken out by a construction facility, which gets taken out by a mortgage. All different credit facilities, all different appraisals, all different values. 43 minutes ago, Phil1111 said: bringing this back to trump. The alleged fraud involved existing properties with two appraisals. The intent of which was to obtain fraudulent advantage in lending or to avoid and defraud taxation authorities. Not proposed developments. And as I eluded to in my first post on this, having two wildly different appraisals is not evidence of fraud. You always intent to argue a very low value for taxation purposes and a very high value for financing purposes (depending on your debt risk apatite). Every home owner does the same thing, at least every sane home owner does. Trump might very well be defrauding somebody, but what has been presented so far doesn't show that either way. Willfully withholding relevant information, or lying about your revenue stream as part of the appraisal however would show that. Edited November 24, 2021 by SkyDekker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeWeber 2,265 #360 November 24, 2021 On 11/22/2021 at 2:58 PM, SkyDekker said: The first part of that sentence is correct. Whether it is a big deal is really going to depend on more than just the delta between the values. Every developer has different appraised values for different purposes and under different scenarios and it isn't all nefarious. Let's say I have an acre lot, currently zoned residential with a renter in the single 2 bedroom house on the property. For property tax purposes, that value assessment is going to be based on those parameters and get to a pretty modest value. Now, let's say I am going to the bank for financing purposes. I may want to try and sell them the dream. The dream of zoning to commercial and getting a density lift to maybe 5.0fsr. Now I have the potential to develop 217,800 square feet of high end office space, a much larger income potential and therefor a much higher value for my same 1 acre of land. Not saying that is the case here at all. But just because two valuation got to two wildly different values for the same plot of land doesn't mean anything nefarious happened. And yes, everybody does that. You're sort of right where I live, maybe 100% right on deals you have done. My experience with actual deals is that you need to be a bit further along than the dream stage. Pre-approvals, an explainable clear pathway under existing rules and so on are what I've seen. Just hoping to rezone SFR land to High Density Commercial goes nowhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,039 #361 November 24, 2021 4 minutes ago, JoeWeber said: You're sort of right where I live, maybe 100% right on deals you have done. My experience with actual deals is that you need to be a bit further along than the dream stage. Pre-approvals, an explainable clear pathway under existing rules and so on are what I've seen. Just hoping to rezone SFR land to High Density Commercial goes nowhere. Hi Joe, Re: Just hoping to rezone SFR land to High Density Commercial goes nowhere. As you probably know, if you are in Portland, OR and you want to rezone that SFR land to High Density Residential, the city will be your friend. 'Parking problems; I do not see any parking problems.' Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeWeber 2,265 #362 November 24, 2021 Just now, JerryBaumchen said: Hi Joe, Re: Just hoping to rezone SFR land to High Density Commercial goes nowhere. As you probably know, if you are in Portland, OR and you want to rezone that SFR land to High Density Residential, the city will be your friend. 'Parking problems; I do not see any parking problems.' Jerry Baumchen My understanding is the zone change allows 2 SFR's on a single lot. Am I wrong? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,098 #363 November 24, 2021 (edited) 36 minutes ago, JoeWeber said: You're sort of right where I live, maybe 100% right on deals you have done. My experience with actual deals is that you need to be a bit further along than the dream stage. Pre-approvals, an explainable clear pathway under existing rules and so on are what I've seen. Just hoping to rezone SFR land to High Density Commercial goes nowhere. I have certainly talked my way into larger land loans based on as-if appraisals showing a dream. But then, it helps to be in a market with high growth rates in land values. Edited November 24, 2021 by SkyDekker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,039 #364 November 24, 2021 43 minutes ago, JoeWeber said: My understanding is the zone change allows 2 SFR's on a single lot. Am I wrong? Hi Joe, I really do not know. My folks owned a small house on a large lot in North Portland. When I looked into putting two houses on the lot, I found that, back in the mid-40's as I remember, there was some re-doing of the property lines and the result was that I could not put two houses on the lot AND I could not appeal that decision. After the fire, I just made a deal with a developer who cleared the carcass & built a larger, single house on the property. C'est la vie, Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,039 #365 December 11, 2021 Hi folks, Re: Alan Swinney wrote to Chauvin . . . speculating both men would be broken out of custody during a coming “civil war.” And, this will happen at the same time Trump is re-instated as POTUS. Violent extremist Alan Swinney sentenced to 10 years in prison for actions in Portland-area protests - OPB Reality is not in their lexicon. Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,611 #366 December 13, 2021 DC circuit denies Trump's claim of executive privilege. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/12/12/trump-loses-executive-privilege/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_opinions&utm_campaign=wp_opinions#:~:text=By Jennifer Rubin,The Supreme Court Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 253 #367 December 14, 2021 So meadows was using private gmail, signal and a personal cellphone for official business and for comms on Jan 6. "But her emails....." 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,362 #368 December 14, 2021 Voter fraud exposed in FL: 3 residents of The Villages arrested for casting multiple votes in 2020 election "All three are registered as Republicans in Florida, voter registration records show." 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 189 #369 December 14, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Stumpy said: private gmail oxymoron 1 hour ago, ryoder said: "All three are registered as Republicans in Florida, voter registration records show." They're scam artists, that's just what they want you to think! Edited December 14, 2021 by Coreece Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 253 #370 December 14, 2021 28 minutes ago, Coreece said: oxymoron I get what you're saying, but its private as opposed to corporate. "Consumer" would probably be a better description. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,354 #371 December 14, 2021 5 hours ago, Stumpy said: So meadows was using private gmail, signal and a personal cellphone for official business and for comms on Jan 6. "But her emails....." Why are they keeping the servers secret? WHAT ARE THEY HIDING? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,362 #372 December 17, 2021 Florida man gets 5 years for assault in Capitol riot, the longest sentence yet Robert Palmer, of Tampa, was sentenced to 63 months for repeatedly assaulting police officers at the Capitol. I suppose for him participating in the riot was Simply Irresistible. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,889 #373 December 17, 2021 11 minutes ago, ryoder said: Simply Irresistible I wonder where the money went? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,039 #374 December 18, 2021 Hi folks, Sometimes it takes a while to really see: “Trump supporters were lied to by those at the time who had great power,” Rioter gets longest prison sentence yet in Capitol attack, now says ‘Trump supporters were lied to’ - oregonlive.com Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,329 #375 December 18, 2021 1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said: Hi folks, Sometimes it takes a while to really see: “Trump supporters were lied to by those at the time who had great power,” Rioter gets longest prison sentence yet in Capitol attack, now says ‘Trump supporters were lied to’ - oregonlive.com Jerry Baumchen Hi Jerry, That's absolutely hilarious. I can't think of any substantial issue that Trump didn't lie about. Not that every statement was a lie (although it's pretty close), it's that there weren't any issues that he didn't lie about something. And, from the article: Quote Palmer said in a handwritten letter to the judge that he felt betrayed by Trump and his allies who fed them conspiracy theories. “Trump supporters were lied to by those at the time who had great power,” he wrote. “They kept spitting out the false narrative about a stolen election and how it was ‘our duty’ to stand up to tyranny.” No shit. Trump lied. And anyone who looked at it from a 'reality based' perspective SAW THAT IT WAS ALL A LIE. It was marks and dupes (you know, morons) who fell for Trump's con. Every single major media outlet (except Fox) made it clear that the election wasn't fraudulent, Biden won and Trump's claims were all lies. But these fools fell for Trump's con, the 'fake news' bullshit and all the rest of the lies. And now they are 'sorry'. File it under TFB. (Too Bad). 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites