President Biden, critics corner

[Phil1111 908]

Just now, billeisele said:

Forget the wall that was intended to manage immigration, human trafficking and drug smuggling by creating entry points that the Border Patrol could handle. Joe can have his personal wall at his vacation home. It will keep him from wandering off and keep the cameras out while he's shaking hands with imaginary people. 

How about the vote buying scheme that will miserably fail? For every 1 person that gets a free ride there are 10 others that are feeling cheated. No, that's not a documented ratio but one can understand the concept, at least some can.

Forgiving loan debt is a shift of money from one group to another. It appears that the ones most upset are those that: didn't go to college because they couldn't afford it and didn't want a loan, went but worked to pay their way without a loan, took a loan but worked to pay it off, etc. 

It sends the wrong signal ..... don't worry the government will cover your bad decision.

$47.385 Billion to agriculture subsidies in 2020 alone. That would be trump.

$20 billion annually on fossil fuel subsidies not including unfunded cleanup costs.

But since republicans love the uneducated your position makes sense.After all the middle class can pay for in the whole context of inequality. To support the largest gap in income inequality in US history. Its the middle and lower classes that take out student loans. The wealthy pay cash.

How Trump Took the Middle Class to the Cleaners

[billeisele 122]

5 minutes ago, billvon said:

Get Out The Vote is not vote-buying.

Yep.  Just as having a child deduction, or having the GI bill, or having public roads, shifts money from one group to another.

I'm one of those.  I am not upset, since I think a more educated populace is critical both to the future economy of the United States and democracy in general.

Sort of like how we give free education to veterans?  Or is that OK because you like veterans?

deflection - don't you say that all the time when folks don't stay focused on the topic?

It's a one-time give away. If one made their last loan payment yesterday they get nothing. If they started a loan last week they get nothing. If they skipped college, started a trade and took out a business loan they get nothing. No one with a mortgage gets anything. 

The tradesmen, the landscapers, the mechanics, the waitresses, the dirty handers they aren't they upper class, they get nothing.

Bottom line is those that are working hard get nothing. And many of those are just as needy.

[jakee 1,254]

13 minutes ago, billvon said:

Sort of like how we give free education to veterans?  Or is that OK because you like veterans?

Slightly OT but I’m now trying to imagine a current Republican meeting a veteran who got a free education in the GI bill then used it to join the FBI. They’ll be figuring out how to justify loving the thing they’re supposed to hate and hating the thing they’re supposed to love until their head exploded.

[billeisele 122]

4 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

$47.385 Billion to agriculture subsidies in 2020 alone. That would be trump.

$20 billion annually on fossil fuel subsidies not including unfunded cleanup costs.

But since republicans love the uneducated your position makes sense.After all the middle class can pay for in the whole context of inequality. To support the largest gap in income inequality in US history. Its the middle and lower classes that take out student loans. The wealthy pay cash.

How Trump Took the Middle Class to the Cleaners

Phil - I get all that, no doubt that everything should be looked at and the tax system revised. My problem with this action is it's a direct slap in the face to so many people. Hey, I can afford it but it's just not right.

Calling non-college folks educated and assuming a college grad is educated is part of the fallacy. One with a library science degree is "educated" but still has little practical knowledge. A tradesperson is certainly not uneducated. The world needs people with all kinds of expertise and much of that is not gained in a college. 

I remember when the ethanol production act was passed John McCain said that it was the biggest farm subsidy bill ever. 

[Stumpy 256]

2 minutes ago, billeisele said:

My problem with this action is it's a direct slap in the face to so many people

It's not that, at all. That's just a fox talking point. Just because they say it, doesn't make it true.
If you don't like other people benefitting from anything, just say so - but you should keep all of Billvons examples in mind.

[Phil1111 908]

7 minutes ago, billeisele said:

Phil - I get all that, ...

I remember when the ethanol production act was passed John McCain said that it was the biggest farm subsidy bill ever. 

I'm against most all subsidies.Keep in mind in this case the average student debt is $28,950. Unless they target the most important national objectives.

More money should be spent on community colleges. They are a tremendous value to a nations economy.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Phil1111

[billeisele 122]

21 minutes ago, billvon said:

Yep.  Just as having a child deduction, or having the GI bill, or having public roads, shifts money from one group to another.

I'm one of those.  I am not upset, since I think a more educated populace is critical both to the future economy of the United States and democracy in general.

Sort of like how we give free education to veterans?  Or is that OK because you like veterans?

GI bill - an employment benefit just like a corporate 401k match or healthcare
Public roads - a common good for all for personal transportation and to enable commerce, not a direct subsidy to one small focused group
Child deduction - yeah, maybe that is one but a huge percentage of the population enjoys it not a small percentage, yep - if one doesn't have a kid they feel cheated, and those that don't have kids in school feel cheated by the school taxes
College is not the only route to become educated. Inferring that anyone that hasn't been to college is uneducated is, well, just wrong, and for some it would be insulting. Probably some on here.
The comment about veterans is idiotic.

[Phil1111 908]

2 minutes ago, billeisele said:

GI bill - an employment benefit just like a corporate 401k match or healthcare
....
The comment about veterans is idiotic.

I agree education doesn't mean intelligent. The GI bill is a part of the job retraining contract of employment. Infantry, sailors, tankers, etc. Get retrained because the skills of the armed forces. Don't adequately prepare them for post service employment.

Keep in mind that student loans also cover education in technical schools. Like trade schools.

[kallend 1,621]

11 minutes ago, billeisele said:

. Inferring that anyone that hasn't been to college is uneducated is, well, just wrong, and for some it would be insulting. Probably some on here.
The comment about veterans is idiotic.

Did you mean "implying"?

[DougH 270]

So what is the price tag of the student loan repayment?

I am not on board on this one. It is absolutely a regressive policy that targets individuals that have higher earning potential.

It doesn't solve the problem of students that really ran up loan balances chasing degrees that don't get them the wages they need to pay back their borrowings. The 10k will be a fraction of their debt, in that sense this is just a hand out to their lenders, but it doesn't leave the borrowers in a new financial position.

It gives a windfall to students that have high earnings potential, computer science, finance, law because their timing is right and they haven't reached into their earning potential yet with just a year or two in the workforce.

It sticks lower earners, and those who paid off their loans, with the bill for a small subset of the population.

Johnny finance student just graduated, he has 30k in debt and he is making 90k a year so he qualifies for this hand out. In 5 years he will be probably be making 150k plus, he will have no problem paying back his loans without assistance. Johnny doesn't need a taxpayer funded hand out.

Dawn with the masters in basket weaving just graduated. She has 80k in debt because she had to go to the out of state university, but she really loved her sorority. She won't be able to pay of her loans ever, unless you add another zero to the loan repayment.

Meanwhile this does nothing to fix the cost of education and how we approach higher education, as well as financial literacy, so we will be right back where we started in 5 or 10 years.

Edited August 25, 2022 by DougH

[kallend 1,621]

28 minutes ago, billeisele said:

deflection - don't you say that all the time when folks don't stay focused on the topic?
 

You brought up transferring wealth from one group to another.  So it isn't deflection, it is precisely on topic.

[jakee 1,254]

2 hours ago, billeisele said:

Calling non-college folks educated and assuming a college grad is educated is part of the fallacy. One with a library science degree is "educated" but still has little practical knowledge. 

Eh? Library Science is a vocational course. You take a library science course in order to know how to be a librarian. It is the definition of practical knowledge.

[billvon 2,380]

2 hours ago, billeisele said:

GI bill - an employment benefit just like a corporate 401k match or healthcare

A transfer of money from taxpayers to veterans.  Taking money out of our pockets to go to a special interest group.  (Using conservative speak)

Quote

Public roads - a common good for all for personal transportation and to enable commerce, not a direct subsidy to one small focused group

A transfer of money from taxpayers to drivers.  Non-drivers do not directly benefit.  However, you are quite correct that it is an INDIRECT benefit to many (say, like an education subsidy.)

Quote

Child deduction - yeah, maybe that is one but a huge percentage of the population enjoys it

Yep.  There are many things the government spends money on that benefits most people in the US.  (The EPA for example)

Quote

College is not the only route to become educated.

I agree.  And supporting education via other angles (trade schools etc) would make sense as well.

Quote

The comment about veterans is idiotic.

It is exactly in line with your comments above.  It is a benefit that veterans get that you are fine with, per your comments above.  And you can be fine with it (I am too) but you don't get to claim that that's completely different just because you like it.

 

[billvon 2,380]

2 hours ago, billeisele said:

The tradesmen, the landscapers, the mechanics, the waitresses, the dirty handers they aren't they upper class, they get nothing.

So let's find a way to support their education as well.

Quote

Bottom line is those that are working hard get nothing. And many of those are just as needy.

I get nothing from the GI bill and I work quite hard.  But I am OK with that, because I think about more than just my own needs when it comes to supporting our society here in the US.

[airdvr 197]

I'm torn.  I don't like the philosophy of forgiving an obligation.  I think it sends the wrong message and it flies in the face of every person who honored their student loan obligations.   However, student loan debt has been hampering the economy for years.  Specifically in my profession it's stopped the first time home buyers.  When there are no first time home buyers those who would like to sell their property and move up have fewer buyers.  

[JoeWeber 2,294]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

So let's find a way to support their education as well.

I get nothing from the GI bill and I work quite hard.  But I am OK with that, because I think about more than just my own needs when it comes to supporting our society here in the US.

That forgiving a small amount of student debt to a targeted group for what, to my eye, appears to be a pure political purpose, i.e.. to get out the college vote in November can even be considered a reasonable strategy is more an indictment of our national system of education than turd bird politics. 

I'm all for pandering to young people to get out the vote, and using our money to do it, but I think this forgiveness plan wasn't the right choice. I'm also doubtful that 10 grand will move the needle much; it's just not much money to people with a lot of debt and not enough money to the rest. Better, I think, to somehow make junior college more accessible and desirable. Start by making it 100% tuition and supplies free of charge, add child care, a free cafeteria, transportation like we do for 1-12, part time work opportunities, and even housing for full timers making a minimum GPA. That seems like a swell way to pander for votes and blow bucks but get a better return on the investment. I don't see how that is achievable by executive action but surely strong elements could have been in the Inflation Reduction Act.

Anecdotes are terrible ways to make a point so naturally I'll go that route. I know two people who each now owe 1/3 of a million in student debt that continues to accrue interest. One, a JD, works the minimum and pays the minimum and whose life's strategy is a life of interrupted employment so he can kick the can down the road forever if need be. The other, a DVM, is hiding outside the country on a sail boat. She simply always hoped that somehow someone would do something and why work just to pay back student loans. Neither went to JC. To sum, I think this puny loan forgiveness scheme is more pissed away political capital than real help.

Edited August 25, 2022 by JoeWeber

[SkyDekker 1,121]

First let's establish where tuition and student loans come from. There used to be tuition free universities available. However those generally right of centre were worried that an educated proletariat would be very dangerous and that resulted in the end of tuition free universities. I truly believe that society in general benefits from education and finances should not be a barrier. Biden's action yesterday does not only forgive some debt, but it also puts limits on interest rates etc. which will be beneficial in the future.

On the philosophy of forgiving an obligation, lots of that going on. The most recent PPP loan scheme forgave a lot of debt for some very rich people. The former president has had a lot of his debt forgiven.

For those who believe that their money shouldn't help those who make their own decisions. Or that those who didn't go to college shouldn't have to pay for those who did etc. How many people have to pay to help support people who chose to live in Tornado Alley, or in areas frequently affected by hurricanes etc.

[kallend 1,621]

Just sayin'

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-taxes-debt-forgiven-chicago-tower-nyt-fail-repay-lenders-2020-10

Doesn't seem to bother the true believers though.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

How many people have to pay to help support people who chose to live in Tornado Alley, or in areas frequently affected by hurricanes etc.

That is a damn fine point. We bail them out and then help with rebuilding. Insanity, but your point is fully intact.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Here in Georgia all in-state college and university students who maintain a B average receive the Hope scholarship, which covers 80% of tuition costs.  The scholarship does not cover books or fees and unfortunately the state university system has tacked a lot of fees onto the cost of attending.  Also of course the scholarship does not help with room and board type expenses.  Nevertheless, 80% of tuition is not insignificant.  It is paid for with money raised by the state lottery; by law any money raised by the lottery, after prizes and expenses to run the lottery, must go into the scholarship fund. 

[SkyDekker 1,121]

2 minutes ago, GeorgiaDon said:

Here in Georgia all in-state college and university students who maintain a B average receive the Hope scholarship, which covers 80% of tuition costs.  The scholarship does not cover books or fees and unfortunately the state university system has tacked a lot of fees onto the cost of attending.  Also of course the scholarship does not help with room and board type expenses.  Nevertheless, 80% of tuition is not insignificant.  It is paid for with money raised by the state lottery; by law any money raised by the lottery, after prizes and expenses to run the lottery, must go into the scholarship fund. 

I guess a little ironic to indirectly tax the poor to help educate the poor.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

19 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

I guess a little ironic to indirectly tax the poor to help educate the poor.

They are more than willing to contribute to the fund.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

26 minutes ago, GeorgiaDon said:

Here in Georgia all in-state college and university students who maintain a B average receive the Hope scholarship, which covers 80% of tuition costs.  The scholarship does not cover books or fees and unfortunately the state university system has tacked a lot of fees onto the cost of attending.  Also of course the scholarship does not help with room and board type expenses.  Nevertheless, 80% of tuition is not insignificant.  It is paid for with money raised by the state lottery; by law any money raised by the lottery, after prizes and expenses to run the lottery, must go into the scholarship fund. 

That's a good thing. But we need to get out of the ignorance hole and it seems to me that making Junior College like grades 13 and 14 for adults who have additional needs is the way to go. The trick will be to not be stingy about it recognizing that it is money that won't be spent elsewhere on more expensive problems. Obviously, it will need to happen when the Democrats are in full control. 

[wmw999 2,116]

I was just doing some reading, and the average student loan debt for recent graduates with debt is a little under $30,000. So forgiving $10,000 is significant, and for lower-income, forgiving twice that is very significant.

And yes, that covers federal student loans for any course of studies — library science (BTW there are TONS of libraries in the north; way more than in the South, so it’s a real job), auto mechanics, computer science, beauty school.

I’m for it. It’s not perfect, but it’s high on the list of improving, making it possible for more people to get ahead.

Wendy P. 

[billeisele 122]

7 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

I'm against most all subsidies.Keep in mind in this case the average student debt is $28,950. Unless they target the most important national objectives.

More money should be spent on community colleges. They are a tremendous value to a nations economy.

I absolutely agree. Community college, trade schools and the like where one can learn skills that will provide one with a rewarding career and comfortable lifestyle. 

No doubt that college is needed for some careers but there are some many kids that are lured to college with the promise of being financially comfortable, and that is just not true. Most bank tellers have a college degree and barely get paid enough to make those loan payments.

In SC a paramedic is paid more than a school teacher or a basic nurse. The last 2 jobs require a college degree. The paramedic gets a significant amount of specialized training, often paid for by their employer. According to some since they didn't go to college so they are uneducated.