President Biden, critics corner

[brenthutch 383]

28 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

If you want to post the EIS I'll read it and be amazed. Are you sure it wasn't a memo or internal something or other.

Here is the tic toc. 
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/24/keystone-xl-pipeline-approval-timeline-obama-trump

[billvon 2,384]

4 hours ago, billeisele said:

All I'm saying is if oil is used a pipeline is the best transportation method. It seems that the Keystone decision was more political than practical, and that's not good.

I suspect it was both.  A few key points:

The left has been opposed to Keystone for years.  Democrats won in a landslide, so it stands to reason that democratic leaders would see that victory as a mandate to implement things their voters want.  It's how representative government works.

Keystone does not provide a much-needed pipeline that is missing right now.  It provides a SECOND pipeline (the XL) which increases capacity over and above the existing Keystone. 

Pipelines are marginally safer than rail shipping.  So in terms of safety, the Keystone XL wins.

The pipeline will employ a lot of people to construct it.  But all those jobs will go away once the pipeline is complete, putting them out of work.  In comparison, shipping oil by rail takes a fair number of workers, and always will.  So you have lots of jobs short term vs. a moderate number of jobs long term.

Improvements in efficiency will allow oil demand to remain flat (or drop) thus hastening the obsolescence of any pipelines constructed now.

All in all I don't feel strongly either way.  The XL would be a nice to have.  It's not critical.

[brenthutch 383]

38 minutes ago, billvon said:

I suspect it was both.  A few key points:

The left has been opposed to Keystone for years.  Democrats won in a landslide, 

Biden did Democrats did not.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/huge-catastrophe-democrats-grapple-congressional-state-election-losses-n1248529

[SkyDekker 1,121]

On 2/6/2021 at 10:11 AM, JoeWeber said:

Ken would be a zillionaire from selling Canadian Lakefront property.

The big three lakes in the Muskoka region just north of Toronto, average price for lakefront cottages:

Lake Joseph $4,157,752

Up 24.2% (2019 $3,347,862)

 

Lake Rosseau $3,543,680

Up 20.1% (2019 $2,950,741)

 

Lake Muskoka $2,099,622

Up 34.9% (2019 $1,625,081)

[JoeWeber 2,294]

2 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Here is the tic toc. 
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/24/keystone-xl-pipeline-approval-timeline-obama-trump

Here's another timeline:

Brent bloviates.

Brent gets called on it and is asked for data.

Brent supplies something from somewhere about something.

Brent gets reminded that the data needs to be the requested data, in this case an actual EIS as initially referenced.

Brent then...........

 

 

[sfzombie13 307]

3 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Here is the tic toc. 
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/24/keystone-xl-pipeline-approval-timeline-obama-trump

as i suspected, not one copy of any proof of anything in none of the links.  they have links to studies that aren't there, go figure.  again, show some proof or stop making claims.  this isn't a gop committee.

[billvon 2,384]

25 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Here's another timeline:

Brent bloviates.

Brent gets called on it and is asked for data.

Brent supplies something from somewhere about something.

Brent gets reminded that the data needs to be the requested data, in this case an actual EIS as initially referenced.

Brent then...........

Don't forget:

Brent then disputes the definitions of words.   "Well, EIS could also mean the Elementary Institute of Science, or could be an abbreviation for Dwight Eisenhower.  What, do you hate Eisenhower?  Typical lib."

[timski 80]

On 2/8/2021 at 6:18 AM, billeisele said:

And therein lies the conflict. Others see what you see and think the same thing as you just from the opposite side.

I'm finding that there is a large amount of agreement on many topics with just a few polar opposite views. Just wondering, if we could throw out the extremes on both ends how many folks cluster towards the center? 

As a fellow bee keeper, we always cluster towards the center!!! 

[timski 80]

On 2/8/2021 at 6:28 AM, billeisele said:

Been gone a few days. Wondering about Keystone. Why do folks think it was/is a bad idea? 
Pipelines are safer, less environmentally disruptive, more efficient and less expensive than any other form of liquid transport. The permitting and regs they have to follow are significant. Yes they have spills but they are easily managed vs. a truck that spills less but has more spills, they are less well managed and the exhaust, tires, fuel, etc. that are a constant pollutant. 

Thanks.

Bill, 

      My biggest opposition is the conflict with native lands and the route proposed. Again I ask, why not run a new parallel line next to the existing??? Why run the potential of two mega spills??? (and naturally, have we not fucked over the natives of N. America enough already?)    

[lippy 766]

20 minutes ago, timski said:

(and naturally, have we not fucked over the natives of N. America enough already?)    

NEVER!!!!

***sorry, lost a few $$$ at the casino last weekend and I'm still a tad bitter.

[billeisele 122]

19 minutes ago, timski said:

Bill, 

      My biggest opposition is the conflict with native lands and the route proposed. Again I ask, why not run a new parallel line next to the existing??? Why run the potential of two mega spills??? (and naturally, have we not fucked over the natives of N. America enough already?)    

One reason for not running adjacent to existing pipelines is to decrease the chance of loss of delivery from both pipelines if there was some type of catastrophic incident - terrorism, earthquake, explosion, plane crash, etc. I'm much more familiar with the planning and design of electrical transmission lines and that is a major design consideration.

A major headache when citing infrastructure is access to land. Few folks are happy regardless of the route. Special interest groups will use any tactic they can to stop the construction. Just look at the Dominion natural gas pipeline that was being built in WV, VA, NC and the upper part of SC. The latest and last roadblock was because of the "sensitive nature of the flora" and crossing the Appalachian trail.

It's a normal practice to obtain permits then acquire land and work on other tasks. Construction is usually started before all the tasks are completed. The goal was to bring natural gas to eastern NC and upper SC, and eventually to the coast. A few billion had been spent and the project was terminated due to "legal uncertainty." They spent tons of money on ongoing litigation with the solar and wind advocates. So yes, all kinds of folks are impacted when infrastructure comes rolling along. No good solution when roads and other stuff is needed. I don't know if native American land was more or less impacted by this one as compared to non-Native land. Routing of these big projects is not easy.

[sfzombie13 307]

8 hours ago, billeisele said:

One reason for not running adjacent to existing pipelines is to decrease the chance of loss of delivery from both pipelines if there was some type of catastrophic incident - terrorism, earthquake, explosion, plane crash, etc. I'm much more familiar with the planning and design of electrical transmission lines and that is a major design consideration.

A major headache when citing infrastructure is access to land. Few folks are happy regardless of the route. Special interest groups will use any tactic they can to stop the construction. Just look at the Dominion natural gas pipeline that was being built in WV, VA, NC and the upper part of SC. The latest and last roadblock was because of the "sensitive nature of the flora" and crossing the Appalachian trail.

It's a normal practice to obtain permits then acquire land and work on other tasks. Construction is usually started before all the tasks are completed. The goal was to bring natural gas to eastern NC and upper SC, and eventually to the coast. A few billion had been spent and the project was terminated due to "legal uncertainty." They spent tons of money on ongoing litigation with the solar and wind advocates. So yes, all kinds of folks are impacted when infrastructure comes rolling along. No good solution when roads and other stuff is needed. I don't know if native American land was more or less impacted by this one as compared to non-Native land. Routing of these big projects is not easy.

it's not dominion, not terminated, and it was the one i was working on until november.  it is also way behind schedule and way over budget.  i can't say any more now, they may bring me back as a field tech when they go back to office work after covid.  i was a field network tech with no field work allowed.  mvp, stands for mountain valley pipeline.  equitransmidstream is building it, formerly eqt.

Edited February 10, 2021 by sfzombie13

[billeisele 122]

36 minutes ago, sfzombie13 said:

it's not dominion, not terminated, and it was the one i was working on until november.  it is also way behind schedule and way over budget.  i can't say any more now, they may bring me back as a field tech when they go back to office work after covid.  i was a field network tech with no field work allowed.  mvp, stands for mountain valley pipeline.  equitransmidstream is building it, formerly eqt.

I was talking about this one. Dominion Energy and Duke Energy cancel the Atlantic Coast Pipeline | Duke Energy | News Center (duke-energy.com)

[sfzombie13 307]

8 minutes ago, billeisele said:

I was talking about this one. Dominion Energy and Duke Energy cancel the Atlantic Coast Pipeline | Duke Energy | News Center (duke-energy.com)

you got the details wrong, mvp is going to nc, and the extension is going another 75 miles, forgot what they called it.  the atlantic coast pipeline was going on the other side of the state, not too far from my son's farm.  they paid some folks over 300k for small right of ways and got a lot of pipe in the ground.  atlantic coast didn't have hardly any protesters, those were all on the mvp. 

edit:  they were going to tie into the mvp, but never got hat far.

Edited February 10, 2021 by sfzombie13
details

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

14 hours ago, billeisele said:

One reason for not running adjacent to existing pipelines is to decrease the chance of loss of delivery from both pipelines if there was some type of catastrophic incident - terrorism, earthquake, explosion, plane crash, etc. I'm much more familiar with the planning and design of electrical transmission lines and that is a major design consideration.

A major headache when citing infrastructure is access to land. Few folks are happy regardless of the route. Special interest groups will use any tactic they can to stop the construction. Just look at the Dominion natural gas pipeline that was being built in WV, VA, NC and the upper part of SC. The latest and last roadblock was because of the "sensitive nature of the flora" and crossing the Appalachian trail.

It's a normal practice to obtain permits then acquire land and work on other tasks. Construction is usually started before all the tasks are completed. The goal was to bring natural gas to eastern NC and upper SC, and eventually to the coast. A few billion had been spent and the project was terminated due to "legal uncertainty." They spent tons of money on ongoing litigation with the solar and wind advocates. So yes, all kinds of folks are impacted when infrastructure comes rolling along. No good solution when roads and other stuff is needed. I don't know if native American land was more or less impacted by this one as compared to non-Native land. Routing of these big projects is not easy.

Hi Bill,

Re:  One reason for not running adjacent to existing pipelines is to decrease the chance of loss of delivery from both pipelines if there was some type of catastrophic incident - terrorism, earthquake, explosion, plane crash, etc. I'm much more familiar with the planning and design of electrical transmission lines and that is a major design consideration.

This why, about 30 yrs ago, FERC ( I think it was them ) said no more double-circuit lines.

Jerry Baumchen

[billeisele 122]

19 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Bill,

Re:  One reason for not running adjacent to existing pipelines is to decrease the chance of loss of delivery from both pipelines if there was some type of catastrophic incident - terrorism, earthquake, explosion, plane crash, etc. I'm much more familiar with the planning and design of electrical transmission lines and that is a major design consideration.

This why, about 30 yrs ago, FERC ( I think it was them ) said no more double-circuit lines.

Jerry Baumchen

Good morning Jerry. FERC, NERC and all the other acronym agencies decided they knew more about transmission system design than the utilities after the great North American blackout of 2003. The fundamental problem originated from the acronym agencies at an earlier date when they decided that deregulation was a good idea. When that happened the primary goal shifted from reliability to profit. The new goal, at least for some utilities, was a lower mix of reliability with higher profit.

It was a complicated event but the basic explanation is:

One utility did less tree trimming (saving money), the load on the line increased, as it heated up it sagged, there was a short circuit fault when the line got near a tree, and the circuit breaker tripped open, as designed. The loads automatically shifted to other circuits and one after another they overloaded, breakers tripped and the event cascaded across the NE.
The adjacent utility "control areas" should have stopped it (like an advancing wildfire with fire breaks) but for whatever reason they didn't. Until it got to the SERC area where it was stopped.

The Southeastern Reliability Council, VA CAR group, watched the cascading blackout creep across the US like a rapidly moving fire. They opened the tie breakers between themselves and the approaching fire. That's what stopped it. Good ole human intervention. Yep, some southern hillbilly redneck control room supervisor probably spilled their coffee and dropped a beef jerky snack when they instructed the control room operators to "Open the Tie Breakers." With a few clicks on a mouse it was done. A minute later they were the guy or girl that saved the day. If you haven't been in a utility control room you are missing out on seeing some incredible technology.

One result of that mess was the acronym agencies now require more stringent vegetation maintenance. Any tree that hits a transmission line is investigated and reported to the feds even if no problems occur. If the tree is outside the federally prescribed corridor no problem. If it is inside, even by a foot, the corridor there are massive million dollar fines. Utilities went out and further widened the right of ways and removed any questionable trees. That shifted the priority back to reliability by threatening profits. And of course all those costs, except fines, are paid by the customers. 

There are actually plenty of double circuited transmission corridors but there are also circuits in other corridors that feed the same transmission substations. A loss of one corridor won't crash the system, at least that is true in SC. Interestingly, there are high pressure natural gas transmission pipes in the same corridor with electric transmission lines. You want to see something scary, watch a high pressure NG line that has been damaged ignite. It's the biggest, loudest, hottest thing I've ever seen. Luckily those lines are monitored and there are control valves that are electronically operated to isolate the leak. It still takes a while for the pressure and volume to burn off.

Again, a very simplistic explanation.

[sfzombie13 307]

23 minutes ago, billeisele said:

 And of course all those costs, except fines, are paid by the customers. 

 You want to see something scary, watch a high pressure NG line that has been damaged ignite. It's the biggest, loudest, hottest thing I've ever seen. Luckily those lines are monitored and there are control valves that are electronically operated to isolate the leak. It still takes a while for the pressure and volume to burn off.

Again, a very simplistic explanation.

unless the utilities decide to ask for an increase in price due to "infrastructure upgrades" that never happen, then the customers pay the fines.  happens all the time, at least in wv. 

as for the part about ng lines exploding, one took out a chunk of 1-77 and almost got me one time.  had i not stopped for lunch i would have been driving right by when it went up.  don't get me started on how many times i heard folks talking about things that shouldn't have gotten past inspectors yet did.  i may need to get called back to this contract. 

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

4 hours ago, billeisele said:

Good morning Jerry. FERC, NERC and all the other acronym agencies decided they knew more about transmission system design than the utilities after the great North American blackout of 2003. The fundamental problem originated from the acronym agencies at an earlier date when they decided that deregulation was a good idea. When that happened the primary goal shifted from reliability to profit. The new goal, at least for some utilities, was a lower mix of reliability with higher profit.

It was a complicated event but the basic explanation is:

One utility did less tree trimming (saving money), the load on the line increased, as it heated up it sagged, there was a short circuit fault when the line got near a tree, and the circuit breaker tripped open, as designed. The loads automatically shifted to other circuits and one after another they overloaded, breakers tripped and the event cascaded across the NE.
The adjacent utility "control areas" should have stopped it (like an advancing wildfire with fire breaks) but for whatever reason they didn't. Until it got to the SERC area where it was stopped.

The Southeastern Reliability Council, VA CAR group, watched the cascading blackout creep across the US like a rapidly moving fire. They opened the tie breakers between themselves and the approaching fire. That's what stopped it. Good ole human intervention. Yep, some southern hillbilly redneck control room supervisor probably spilled their coffee and dropped a beef jerky snack when they instructed the control room operators to "Open the Tie Breakers." With a few clicks on a mouse it was done. A minute later they were the guy or girl that saved the day. If you haven't been in a utility control room you are missing out on seeing some incredible technology.

One result of that mess was the acronym agencies now require more stringent vegetation maintenance. Any tree that hits a transmission line is investigated and reported to the feds even if no problems occur. If the tree is outside the federally prescribed corridor no problem. If it is inside, even by a foot, the corridor there are massive million dollar fines. Utilities went out and further widened the right of ways and removed any questionable trees. That shifted the priority back to reliability by threatening profits. And of course all those costs, except fines, are paid by the customers. 

There are actually plenty of double circuited transmission corridors but there are also circuits in other corridors that feed the same transmission substations. A loss of one corridor won't crash the system, at least that is true in SC. Interestingly, there are high pressure natural gas transmission pipes in the same corridor with electric transmission lines. You want to see something scary, watch a high pressure NG line that has been damaged ignite. It's the biggest, loudest, hottest thing I've ever seen. Luckily those lines are monitored and there are control valves that are electronically operated to isolate the leak. It still takes a while for the pressure and volume to burn off.

Again, a very simplistic explanation.

Hi Bill,

Re:  If you haven't been in a utility control room you are missing out on seeing some incredible technology.

I spent 30 yrs working for Bonneville Power Admin; been our control rooms many times.  I had the Technical Contract Management responsibility for all of the consoles when we upgraded our control rooms.

Fascinating to watch a control room in action.

Jerry Baumchen

[billeisele 122]

17 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Bill,

Re:  If you haven't been in a utility control room you are missing out on seeing some incredible technology.

I spent 30 yrs working for Bonneville Power Admin; been our control rooms many times.  I had the Technical Contract Management responsibility for all of the consoles when we upgraded our control rooms.

Fascinating to watch a control room in action.

Jerry Baumchen

Lucky man. It's amazing for sure. If folks knew how the grid was managed they would wonder why it ever works.

One of the new challenges is chasing load when the grid has large amounts of connected solar. It's surprising how quickly the solar output drops or rises when a cloud comes or goes. A couple of the larger MW(s) solar systems are a real challenge to follow.

[RonD1120 58]

Yesterday afternoon gas price increased $0.20/gal. I fear this is just the beginning. President Trump got us to energy independence JB wiped that out in less than one month.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

6 minutes ago, RonD1120 said:

Yesterday afternoon gas price increased $0.20/gal. I fear this is just the beginning. President Trump got us to energy independence JB wiped that out in less than one month.

That's the sign I've been waiting for, absolutely. Never in 33 years of buying fuels, for certain more than 500,000 gallons and maybe a million, have I ever seen a price increase of 20 cents in one month. Get real, Ron. Also, he isn't JB. He  is President of the United States Joe Biden. Get used to saying it.

[sfzombie13 307]

16 minutes ago, RonD1120 said:

Yesterday afternoon gas price increased $0.20/gal. I fear this is just the beginning. President Trump got us to energy independence JB wiped that out in less than one month.

more like the end of putin helping out his favorite kompromat. 

[Phil1111 908]

29 minutes ago, RonD1120 said:

Yesterday afternoon gas price increased $0.20/gal. I fear this is just the beginning. President Trump got us to energy independence JB wiped that out in less than one month.

The tens of billions that investors poured into fracking bought the US energy independence. Those investors will never see a return on their investment and many will loose every penny. See the dozens of quotes, references in Brent's global cooling and flat earth thread.

President Biden has done nothing, yet, to increase the domestic price of energy. But as polls show Two-Thirds of Americans Think Government Should Do More on Climate.

In addition Many globally are as concerned about climate change as about the spread of infectious diseases.

Small groups who live in mountain hideaways may only care about the price of gas and 5.56 ammo. But most people live in a interconnected world and care about each other.

[gowlerk 1,903]

1 hour ago, RonD1120 said:

Yesterday afternoon gas price increased $0.20/gal. I fear this is just the beginning. President Trump got us to energy independence JB wiped that out in less than one month.

Which of the four Horsemen does that represent?

[billvon 2,384]

3 hours ago, RonD1120 said:

Yesterday afternoon gas price increased $0.20/gal.

Good!  Perhaps that will encourage people to stop wasting it.  There will be more employment on US tight oil fields, more people hired to build fuel efficient cars, and more people replacing their gas guzzlers.  Jobs!

"Waste not, want not."