Lefties and lockdowns

[Phil1111 908]

3 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

That is just one example.  I always make it a point to notice the bumper stickers on the back of cars with mask wearing solo drivers (because it is so ridiculous) and if there is one, it is invariably a Bernie, Biden, BLM, HRC or otherwise Left leaning festoonment....

So of everything going on as you drive down the road. Your right wing bias leads you to look for and take note of, single occupant, mask wearing, political leanings.

Got it.

Just for you, you can print it off and attach to your dash when traffic is light.

[brenthutch 383]

43 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by brenthutch

[brenthutch 383]

9 minutes ago, olofscience said:

Only an idiot would measure the rightness of his opinion with the number of responses it generates.

Wow, even name calling now....must have really hit a nerve.

[brenthutch 383]

28 minutes ago, sfzombie13 said:

masks and 6 ft distance has been proven to stop the spread of covid19, so the places that could not shut down could have stopped it from spreading if everyone who was there wore masks.  

Early on in the pandemic our leading infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci said, “There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face.”

So unless you have a time machine, your plan wouldn’t have worked.

[olofscience 420]

12 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Wow, even name calling now....must have really hit a nerve.

I'm not name calling, just stating a fact.

If vaccine effectiveness was measured by how many people believed in the vaccine, then we shouldn't have bothered with the Phase 3 clinical trials right?

Or closer to your analogy: the more people that are offended by the vaccine, the more effective it is. Which I hope you realise, is not a very good way to measure its effectiveness.

Edited January 16, 2021 by olofscience

[brenthutch 383]

I just think it is noteworthy (and a bit funny) that the guys who take umbrage over the lefties-like-lockdowns post extol the virtues of a lockdown in their reply.

”How dare you make the outrageous claim that Left leaning people prefer lockdowns masks, government mandates and collective action!  Anyway, had we ALL just locked down, instated police enforced mask mandates and lived off of government checks for a few months this would have all been behind us now”

Edited January 16, 2021 by brenthutch

[olofscience 420]

7 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

I just think it is noteworthy (and a bit funny) that the guys who take umbrage over the lefties-like-lockdowns post extol the virtues of a lockdown in their reply.

Well, I was not one of them. I hate lockdowns. I really do.

But keep thinking that lefties love lockdowns, if it gives you that warm fuzzy feeling that you're better than them, I would say reality's a bit different but who am I to stop you massaging your own ego?

[billvon 2,380]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

I just think it is noteworthy (and a bit funny) that the guys who take umbrage over the lefties-like-lockdowns

Nobody likes lockdowns.  That's just another one of your strawmen.

[headoverheels 291]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

Early on in the pandemic our leading infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci said, “There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face.”

He said that because there was a severe shortage of masks and other PPE, and he didn't want the medical providers to go without.

It is true that some people wearing masks might stand closer to others than they would otherwise, reducing the overall benefit.  People do also "fiddle" with them -- this is one reason you do see people driving with a mask on; if they are running a series of errands, it is better just to leave it on rather than fuck with it.  I personally sanitize every time I get back into my car, and use a different mask for the next stop.  I really haven't been in that many establishments since last March -- maybe 20 or so visits in total.

Edited January 16, 2021 by headoverheels

[sfzombie13 307]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

Early on in the pandemic our leading infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci said, “There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face.”

So unless you have a time machine, your plan wouldn’t have worked.

sounds like another fairy tale that starts with "in the beginning..." but i digress.  i refuse to believe that you are not playing me with this.  nobody is that stupid.  just in case, have you ever heard of adjusting your plans when new information comes in?  and, hear me out on this, had the administration not gutted the agencies responsible for dealing with it, it may not have been an issue at all.  at this time, he had no reason to think the transmission was primarily airborne.  it has since been found to be only 10 or 20% transmitted by contact.  i had the same discussion with friends and didn't wear a mask until the new information came out.  but then again, i'm not an idiot and can change my mind based on facts.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

5 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Dr. Jonathan Haidt consistently found that liberals overemphasize “caring” and “fairness” above other moral considerations.

So at least he watches old TED Talks. You probably didn't think about it because he's a military hero but his entire self serving screed is, well, an entire self serving screed. 

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

4 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Because NOBODY got it right the first time. It should have been a complete 3 month shutdown.

Now, let's have curfews in Europe at 6PM WTF is that going to do? Is it only spread at night? sheesh. Maybe this is God's, Buddha's, Mohammad, et.al. way of cleansing us of silly ideas. 

Actually, the original lockdowns worked reasonably well. 

Infection rates were fairly low.

They should have been left in place longer, but they were working.

Look at how the numbers spiked in June and July, after stuff opened up.

One thing that is being ignored is how the 'conservatives' decided that it was 'showing weakness' to follow basic safety protocols. 
The right decided not to wear masks, not to stay away from others, not to do anything the 'liberal scientists' told them to do. 

That's one reason that "Trump territory" saw some of the biggest spikes over the summer. 

[brenthutch 383]

1 hour ago, olofscience said:

But keep thinking that lefties love lockdowns, if it gives you that warm fuzzy feeling that you're better than them, I would say reality's a bit different but who am I to stop you massaging your own ego?

I just went back and re-read the Crenshaw article and could find nothing about it that said conservatives were better than liberals.  Just different.  Sure it was presented from his point of view, but the same set of observations could have just as easily been spun by the left.  It was an attempt at explaining our differences.  Much better than the typical “the Right are idiots and the Left are Pu**ys” paradigm I thought.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

1 minute ago, brenthutch said:

Much better than the typical “the Right are idiots and the Left are Pu**ys” paradigm I thought.

Just written in a way that resonates with you. It was really same, same.

[mistercwood 287]

30 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

I just went back and re-read the Crenshaw article and could find nothing about it that said conservatives were better than liberals.  Just different.

The entire tone of the piece - which is also outright stated in a few places - is that conservatives are rational and courageous, and that liberals are emotional and fearful. And that the conservative view is better.

My favourite ironic two-fer, from the same paragraph and separated by a single sentence:

Quote

Conservatives are more morally balanced, while liberals measure the worth of an action by its corresponding measurement of signaled compassion. 

 

Quote

After all, rational discussions become impossible with someone who views you as morally inferior.

 

[brenthutch 383]

As I said it is written from his point of view.  One can easily rephrase it as: Conservatives are reckless and uncaring and Liberals are careful and compassionate.

[Phil1111 908]

5 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

As I said it is written from his point of view.  One can easily rephrase it as: Conservatives are reckless and uncaring and Liberals are careful and compassionate.

So truthfully then.

[mistercwood 287]

14 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

As I said it is written from his point of view.  One can easily rephrase it as: Conservatives are reckless and uncaring and Liberals are careful and compassionate.

I absolutely concede that one can do that, but it's not how it's phrased and it's very much not the framing the author is using to reinforce their agenda.

Dan is framing any liberal reaction as emotionally based (or worse, as virtue signaling theatre), and the conservative one as rational and reality-based. The message he is trying to instill in the reader is that any liberal reaction cannot be based in reason, and vice versa that the conservative view always will be - this is not only false, it's just plain fucking dumb. It would be just as dumb for me to say that conservatives are incapable of empathy.

He's doing this to lend weight to his fallacious conclusion that lockdowns don't work. They do, if you have leadership that's willing to do the hard work and a populace who are willing to take up their share of the responsibility.

The bigger takeaway question here really should be - why was America lacking in both?

 

[Westerly 61]

Despite the overwhelming evidence that the cost of lockdowns far outweighs the limited benefits, many policymakers lack the backbone or creativity to come up with any alternative.

 

Saving millions of lives is considered a 'limited benefit'?

It's not the policymakers that are the problem, it is the people. The CDC has made it clear what we need to do to stop the spread. If we had 100% compliance, there would be no lockdowns anywhere because this shit would be under control. But people like to just ignore the problem and hope it will go away and that's not how this works, so as expected the problem just gets worse. That's entirely and squarely our fault because we're the ones causing this problem in the first place. The dude who wont wear his mask. The bar who throws a massive NYE party. The family that has a 30-person get-together over the holidays. We are to blame for our mistakes, not the government.

I had a solution, it's a effective and it is super simple. No restrictions, no mask requirements, but anytime the positivity rate increases above 7.5% in the state, the entire state goes into lockdown for a minimum of 21 days or until the rate drops below 5%. No one goes out, not for any reason unless absolutely necessary. Then put it on the people. Want to keep your job, business and home? Then you better wise up quickly. This will cause society to start putting pressure on others to do the right thing because otherwise everyone will be in deep shit. There are states doing similar things right now and they tend to constantly be in the top 5 for lowest infection rates nationwide.
 

Edited January 17, 2021 by Westerly

[brenthutch 383]

47 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

So truthfully then.

And this is where, “After all, rational discussions become impossible with someone who views you as morally inferior.” Comes in.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

21 minutes ago, mistercwood said:

...The bigger takeaway question here really should be - why was America lacking in both?

 

'Cuz we're more concerned about our 'rights' than our responsibilities.

"Cuz we're a bunch of spoiled, immature, selfish brats.

'Cu we're a bunch of gullible fools who put Trump into office. So that when he said 'it will go away', they believed him. When he said it was 'a hoax' they believed him.

The worst part about it is that there is a significant segment of the population that DID take it seriously, that did take precautions, that were doing all the right things.

Unfortunately, too many idiots decided that they didn't have to, didn't want to, or that it would make them look 'weak'. 

So we're where we are.

[brenthutch 383]

25 minutes ago, Westerly said:

Despite the overwhelming evidence that the cost of lockdowns far outweighs the limited benefits, many policymakers lack the backbone or creativity to come up with any alternative.

 

Saving millions of lives is considered a 'limited benefit'?

It's not the policymakers that are the problem, it is the people. The CDC has made it clear what we need to do to stop the spread. If we had 100% compliance, there would be no lockdowns anywhere because this shit would be under control. But people like to just ignore the problem and hope it will go away and that's not how this works, so as expected the problem just gets worse. That's entirely and squarely our fault because we're the ones causing this problem in the first place. The dude who wont wear his mask. The bar who throws a massive NYE party. The family that has a 30-person get-together over the holidays. We are to blame for our mistakes, not the government.
 

I don’t know where you got the “ saving millions of lives” notion.  It is not based on any rational assessment.  As far as blaming us goes, here in State College PA (think of it as the Austin TX of Pennsylvania) we have universal mask requirements (enforced by the police) Bars are closed, restaurants were closed during the holidays and are now operating at greatly reduced capacity or take out only, municipal services have been curtailed, schools are closed, Penn State students have not been allowed to return and the deeply blue population is almost universally compliant.  Yet our COVID is spreading more than it ever has been.  It might be comforting to think a mask will make everything better.... but the data would suggest “the virus is going to virus.”

Edited January 17, 2021 by brenthutch

[JoeWeber 2,294]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

As I said it is written from his point of view.  One can easily rephrase it as: Conservatives are reckless and uncaring and Liberals are careful and compassionate.

Then why not change the thread title to: Righties and Cockups? Well, we know why don't we?

[Phil1111 908]

17 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

And this is where, “After all, rational discussions become impossible with someone who views you as morally inferior.” Comes in.

Your luck! Joe answers you below.

11 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

'Cuz we're more concerned about our 'rights' than our responsibilities.

"Cuz we're a bunch of spoiled, immature, selfish brats.

'Cu we're a bunch of gullible fools who put Trump into office. So that when he said 'it will go away', they believed him. When he said it was 'a hoax' they believed him.

The worst part about it is that there is a significant segment of the population that DID take it seriously, that did take precautions, that were doing all the right things.

Unfortunately, too many idiots decided that they didn't have to, didn't want to, or that it would make them look 'weak'. 

So we're where we are.

 

[brenthutch 383]

2 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

'Cuz we're more concerned about our 'rights' than our responsibilities.

"Cuz we're a bunch of spoiled, immature, selfish brats.
 

Correct it is our fault.  Our population is full of sedentary, overweight, diabetic, hypertensive exercise adverse smokers and vapers.  We want the right to eat and drink everything our hearts desire yet lack the responsibility to mitigate those behaviors.  
 

Edited January 17, 2021 by brenthutch