Lefties and lockdowns

[olofscience 420]

14 hours ago, brenthutch said:

I’m just pointing out the demonstrable fact that lockdowns have a marginal impact on covid. The benefit is small/negligible while the damage is significant 

Well Sweden has:

• limited gatherings to 8 people;
• banned all visits to care homes;
• moved all schools to online learning;
• discouraged public transport and travel;
• prohibited serving alcohol after 10pm;
• enforced social distancing;
• closed their borders from visitors outside the EU;

So while technically they haven't "locked down", they still have implemented restrictions, and their economy has suffered quite a lot as a result. Their neighbours have closed their borders to Sweden as well, worsening the economic impact.

So holding up Sweden as a shining example is really just nonsensical. If you were under the same restrictions you'd still be complaining.

[billvon 2,396]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

I’m not lying.  The numbers speak for themselves.

You are lying.  New case rate here is (finally) decreasing.   That is due to NPI's - since we do not have enough vaccinations/recovered infections to account for the reduction in Re.

It is fortunate we've ignored people like you; if we heeded you we'd have over a million dead instead of "only" half a million.  And those half a million are due largely to people like this:

[billvon 2,396]

11 minutes ago, olofscience said:

Well Sweden has:

• limited gatherings to 8 people (etc etc)

And far more importantly, people are willing to work together to reduce infections by implementing the list of NPI's above.  They do not have a large and vocal minority who believe that closing bars early, distancing etc "is just like Hitler" or nonsense like that.

[sfzombie13 307]

7 minutes ago, billvon said:

And far more importantly, people are willing to work together to reduce infections by implementing the list of NPI's above.  They do not have a large and vocal minority who believe that closing bars early, distancing etc "is just like Hitler" or nonsense like that.

having actually lived through the real hitler.  that's also why i listen when my friends from overseas say trump was like eerily like hitler.

[BIGUN 1,053]

6 minutes ago, sfzombie13 said:

having actually lived through the real hitler. 

You are more than 80 years old?

[sfzombie13 307]

1 minute ago, BIGUN said:

You are more than 80 years old?

some of the inhabitants of those nations are and did.  i was unclear.

[brenthutch 383]

1 hour ago, olofscience said:

Well Sweden has:

• limited gatherings to 8 people;
• banned all visits to care homes;
• moved all schools to online learning;
• discouraged public transport and travel;
• prohibited serving alcohol after 10pm;
• enforced social distancing;
• closed their borders from visitors outside the EU;

So while technically they haven't "locked down", they still have implemented restrictions, and their economy has suffered quite a lot as a result. Their neighbours have closed their borders to Sweden as well, worsening the economic impact.

So holding up Sweden as a shining example is really just nonsensical. If you were under the same restrictions you'd still be complaining.

Ok enough with Sweden.  Let’s get back to the U.S. and compare the most locked down state, California, with the least locked down state, Oklahoma.

Deaths per 100,000:

Califonia-114

Oklahoma-98

If lockdowns worked as advertised the numbers would be reversed.....but they’re not......so.....

BTW California just surpassed New York as the state with the most covid deaths.

[jakee 1,254]

5 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Because Florida never went into a hard lockdown, their curve is much flatter.  More herd immunity = less of a spike.  

Who do you think you're fooling when you just make shit up? The top of Florida's curve in early January was an almost indentical if slightly better per capita infection rate to the UK. Where's your herd immunity there? The infection rate in the UK now is significantly lower than the Florida infection rate, similarly UK deaths are trending sharply down since mid January and Florida deaths are holding steady.

BTW, the UK government is manifestly anti-lockdown. At the beginning of the pandemic they pushed the same lunatic 'herd immunity' strategy as you are still clinging to now. Partly as a result, when they finally took concrete steps to minimise infections we were firmly established as one of the deadliest countries in Europe. They only decided to implement each lockdown when it became clear that there was no alternative, each time it was an embarrassing political climbdown and each time it's clear in the numbers that it worked - unless you know of some stunningly well timed coincidental factors that suddenly cropped up on all three occasions?

[brenthutch 383]

6 minutes ago, jakee said:

Who do you think you're fooling when you just make shit up? The top of Florida's curve in early January was an almost indentical if slightly better per capita infection rate to the UK. Where's your herd immunity there? The infection rate in the UK now is significantly lower than the Florida infection rate, similarly UK deaths are trending sharply down since mid January and Florida deaths are holding steady.

BTW, the UK government is manifestly anti-lockdown. At the beginning of the pandemic they pushed the same lunatic 'herd immunity' strategy as you are still clinging to now. Partly as a result, when they finally took concrete steps to minimise infections we were firmly established as one of the deadliest countries in Europe. They only decided to implement each lockdown when it became clear that there was no alternative, each time it was an embarrassing political climbdown and each time it's clear in the numbers that it worked - unless you know of some stunningly well timed coincidental factors that suddenly cropped up on all three occasions?

Deaths per 100,000:

Califonia-114

Oklahoma-98

If lockdowns worked as advertised the numbers would be reversed.....but they’re not......so.....

BTW the UK’s death rate had nowhere to go but down.  One of the highest in the world 

Edited February 10, 2021 by brenthutch

[JoeWeber 2,298]

5 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Deaths per 100,000:

Califonia-114

Oklahoma-98

If lockdowns worked as advertised the numbers would be reversed.....but they’re not......so.....

BTW the UK’s death rate had nowhere to go but down.  One of the highest in the world 

The population density per square mile in California is 253. In Oklahoma it is 58. Also, maybe you can't catch it from a cousin.

[jakee 1,254]

10 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Deaths per 100,000:

Califonia-114

Oklahoma-98

If lockdowns worked as advertised the numbers would be reversed.....but they’re not......so.....

Population density. How many people live in mega-cities in California and how many in Oklahoma? You can go about your normal day in the rural midwest and still see far fewer people than you would while going food shopping in lockdown LA.

Quote

BTW the UK’s death rate had nowhere to go but down.  One of the highest in the world 

Oh, you noticed that? So how come you're not confused about why our curve isn't flatter than Florida's, because shouldn't we have more herd immunity than they do by now? After all, comparitive case rates can be skewed by testing rates, but death are deaths.

 

Nah, you're far too dishonest to ever admit that doesn't make sense.

[billvon 2,396]

31 minutes ago, jakee said:

Who do you think you're fooling when you just make shit up?

You.  He is fooling you.  He got you to respond to his made up shit, right?  He wins.

[brenthutch 383]

18 minutes ago, billvon said:

You.  He is fooling you.  He got you to respond to his made up shit, right?  He wins.

Look Bill, I think I have supported my claims, admittedly some better than others.  It’s funny how this thread is how lefties like lockdowns more than righties and we have just spent 17 pages proving that to be the case.  Lefties have no sense if irony either.

[nwt 131]

3 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Ok enough with Sweden.  Let’s get back to the U.S. and compare the most locked down state, California, with the least locked down state, Oklahoma.

Deaths per 100,000:

Califonia-114

Oklahoma-98

If lockdowns worked as advertised the numbers would be reversed.....but they’re not......so.....

BTW California just surpassed New York as the state with the most covid deaths.

Anyone can cherry pick and I'm not even going to bother doing the legwork to see if your cherry picked data even supports your position.

I'm most familiar with Illinois because I live here. We were spiking hard, then we locked down, then the curve quite dramatically flattened and reversed downward. It works, and it's obvious.

If you agree that this is spread from person to person, then it's profoundly stupid to say keeping people apart doesn't do anything to slow the spread. I don't know what else to say.

Attached are a post I made in November when we just started to see the dramatic effect of the lockdown, and a chart from today that shows the continued effect.

[nwt 131]

[duplicate]

Edited February 10, 2021 by nwt
duplicate

[olofscience 420]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

It’s funny how this thread is how lefties like lockdowns more than righties

NOBODY likes lockdowns. I fucking hate lockdowns.

I repeat, NOBODY likes them.

You're mistaking "we think brenthutch is advocating stupid" with "we like lockdowns". There's a difference, you know.

[brenthutch 383]

27 minutes ago, nwt said:

Anyone can cherry pick and I'm not even going to bother doing the legwork to see if your cherry picked data even supports your position.

I'm most familiar with Illinois because I live here. We were spiking hard, then we locked down, then the curve quite dramatically flattened and reversed downward. It works, and it's obvious.

If you agree that this is spread from person to person, then it's profoundly stupid to say keeping people apart doesn't do anything to slow the spread. I don't know what else to say.

Attached are a post I made in November when we just started to see the dramatic effect of the lockdown, and a chart from today that shows the continued effect.

All states had a spike during the holidays and a significant drop afterwards.  Google Tennessee and COVID and look at the NYTs graph.  No business shutdown, no mask mandates, no stay at home order.  Compare that to its neighbor North Carolina, it has limited businesses, mandated masks and implemented stay at home measures and its drop in COVID is not nearly as steep as Tennessee’s

 It should be noted that the Governor of Tennessee is a Republican and the Governor of North Carolina is a Democrat.  Again buttressing my argument that lefties like lockdowns more than righties.

And look I’m not saying lockdowns are 100% useless, there not.  I just agree with the Word Health Organization, that they often cause more harm than good and should not be used as a first line of defense.

Edited February 10, 2021 by brenthutch

[nwt 131]

12 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

All states had a spike during the holidays and a significant drop afterwards.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what you are replying to. None of your post does.

[olofscience 420]

28 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Again buttressing my argument that lefties like lockdowns more than righties.

Seriously, nobody likes them. Stop making that argument.

[olofscience 420]

31 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

and should not be used as a first line of defense.

Find ONE quotation here that advocated lockdowns as the first line of defense.

Even last spring I was saying lockdowns should be a last resort. I can provide references. You can't.

[billvon 2,396]

34 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

 Again buttressing my argument that lefties like lockdowns more than righties.

By that argument, righties love high death tolls; lefties don't.

Quote

should not be used as a first line of defense.

Agreed.  Masking/distancing/contact tracing/testing should be the first line of defense.  But we have people like you (see below) so sadly we sometimes need lockdowns.

Don't like lockdowns?  Stop calling masks "face diapers" "coward flags" etc and use them.  Distance.  Test.  Then you can still go and get your manicure.  Win/win.

[Westerly 61]

Sometimes lockdowns are necessary, other times they are over the top. It depends on the region. In Japan, it seems the cure is worse than the disease. 

In Japan, more people died from suicide last month than from Covid in all of 2020 - CNN

Edited February 11, 2021 by Westerly

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Ummm...

What cure?

From your own link:
 

Quote

"We didn't even have a lockdown, and the impact of Covid is very minimal compared to other countries ... 

Japan, as a society, has a lot of 'germophobia'. People there often wear masks in public. 
They had a very different experience with it than most western countries.

This is from back in May, but it covers much of the response and results Japan had.
https://time.com/5842139/japan-beat-coronavirus-testing-lockdowns/

[kallend 1,623]

16 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Ok enough with Sweden.

And the goalposts move again.

[brenthutch 383]

1 hour ago, kallend said:

And the goalposts move again.

Hardly, I just provided two additional examples. 
California vs Oklahoma and Tennessee vs North Carolina 

When I contrasted CA (the state with the most restrictions) to OK (the state with the fewest restrictions) and proved Oklahoma was doing better, I got “well they’re too different to make a valid comparison”

So then I did the same analysis with two neighboring states and arrived at the same conclusion.

I didn’t move the goalposts, I scored the touchdown, got the two point conversion and spiked the ball in the end zone.

BTW I hope you are staying warm in your, not-caused-by-global-warming polar vortex.