History in the making

[jakee 1,354]

20 minutes ago, lummy said:

And since this has never been done before, there is also some ambiguity over who is in charge during the 4 days the cabinet is trying to overrule the president

No, there is no ambiguity. As soon as Trump's letter reaches the House and Senate leaders he is President again. As soon as Pence and the Cabinet's second letter reaches the House and Senate leaders (if they choose to transmit one, which can be done at any time in a 4 day window following Trump's letter - it doesn't 'take' 4 days if they don't want it to) then Pence is acting President again.

Again, this is not ambiguous. Somewhat unusually for your Constitution, the language is crystal clear. 

 

I guess the only question would be what if the returning President immediately orders the arrest of the VP or any significant portion of the Cabinet before they are able to sign a second letter. Wouldn't that be fun!

[billvon 2,741]

There's a lot of fine white whine being showcased on Parler today.  Check it out on Parlertakes.

As one person commented, there's a pretty even division of people on Parler posting that Antifa and BLM did all the rioting - and people posting selfies of themselves rioting.

[airdvr 201]

21 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Bullshit. You 'blamed the Dems' in your original post and are now trying to weasel out of it.

Please describe this "sliver". What exactly is it and why does anyone who didn't vote for Trump own any of it?

This whole mess is on Trump and the Republican party.

And on those who voted for them, either back in 2016 or a couple of months ago.
Although it's a lot more on the recent ones because they had full evidence of how evil Trump is, and how the Rs are in full lockstep, at least until the last couple of weeks.

If you'll get a towel and wipe the spittal off your screen you'll see that I said the left owns some of it.  They were so sure the polls were correct that many of them didn't even bother to vote.  I also said in 2016 that the left won't make that mistake again in 2020.  And they didn't.

Edited January 7, 2021 by airdvr

[lummy 4]

22 minutes ago, jakee said:

No, there is no ambiguity.

How is this clear?

he shall resume the powers and duties of his office -->unless <--- the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President 
 

It does not say until

[wolfriverjoe 1,464]

1 minute ago, airdvr said:

If you'll get a towel and wipe the spittal off your screen you'll see that I said the left owns some of it.  They were so sure the polls were correct that many of them didn't even bother to vote.  I also said in 2016 that the left won't make that mistake again in 2020.  And they didn't.

Wow. 

So how does that mean that they 'own' this?

They failed to take Trump as a serious threat? Nobody did. 

Yet every time they (the whole country, not just the 'left') tried to stop him, his supporters (including you) enabled him.

And now this. 

As was noted above, that's the same as saying 'she asked for it' when a woman gets raped.

[JoeWeber 2,573]

1 minute ago, airdvr said:

If you'll get a towel and wipe the spittal off your screen you'll see that I said the left owns some of it.  I also said in 2016 that the left won't make that mistake again in 2020.  And they didn't.

Normally I'd say keep trying but I don't think you are even close to getting close so instead I'll suggest that you just give it up here. Surely you have a tight circle of friends who are all spouting the same self serving nonsense, right? Just put another dog on the barbie, grab another bottle of Superstition Berry White, and enjoy the camaraderie.

[billvon 2,741]

11 minutes ago, airdvr said:

If you'll get a towel and wipe the spittal off your screen you'll see that I said the left owns some of it. 

I'd perhaps put down the shovel at this point?

[olofscience 464]

17 minutes ago, airdvr said:

If you'll get a towel and wipe the spittal off your screen you'll see that I said the left owns some of it.  They were so sure the polls were correct that many of them didn't even bother to vote.  I also said in 2016 that the left won't make that mistake again in 2020.  And they didn't.

Nice, keep digging.

So the left owns some of it because they failed to defeat Trump?

That's like saying the rape victim owns some of it because he/she failed to overpower the attacker in close quarters combat, because they were overconfident that they were safe and let their guard down.

 

Edit to add: a Capitol Police officer is now reported to have died from injuries from the riots.

Edited January 8, 2021 by olofscience

[wolfriverjoe 1,464]

27 minutes ago, jakee said:

No, there is no ambiguity. As soon as Trump's letter reaches the House and Senate leaders he is President again. As soon as Pence and the Cabinet's second letter reaches the House and Senate leaders (if they choose to transmit one, which can be done at any time in a 4 day window following Trump's letter - it doesn't 'take' 4 days if they don't want it to) then Pence is acting President again.

Again, this is not ambiguous. Somewhat unusually for your Constitution, the language is crystal clear. 

 

I guess the only question would be what if the returning President immediately orders the arrest of the VP or any significant portion of the Cabinet before they are able to sign a second letter. Wouldn't that be fun!

 

2 minutes ago, lummy said:

How is this clear?

he shall resume the powers and duties of his office -->unless <--- the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President 
 

It does not say until

Part of it is because it's intended to allow the VP to take power from an incapacitated President.

So if the VP says 'the President is not able to execute his duties', the President has the ability to say "Nuh Uuuuuhhhhhh, I can too do my job" and resume power. 
Then the VP & cabinet have to decide if they really want to pursue this.

If the Pres is in a coma, that wouldn't apply. 

In this case, where it's pretty much a hostile takeover, I would think that the VP & cabinet would have the 2nd letter in their pocket when they transmit the first. It would then be delivered almost instantly on the heels of Trumps "No, I'm still here" letter. 

[SkyDekker 1,301]

1 hour ago, lummy said:

And since this has never been done before, there is also some ambiguity over who is in charge during the 4 days the cabinet is trying to overrule the president

it doesn't say they have to wait 4 days to submit, it says they have 4 days to submit. They could submit 1 second after Trump submits the way that is written. But agreed that it is all uncharted waters.

[SkyDekker 1,301]

45 minutes ago, jakee said:

I guess the only question would be what if the returning President immediately orders the arrest of the VP or any significant portion of the Cabinet before they are able to sign a second letter. Wouldn't that be fun!

Submit the second letter together with the first letter. 

[wolfriverjoe 1,464]

5 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Submit the second letter together with the first letter. 

I don't think that would work. 

It states clearly that the 2nd letter has to be submitted after the President's rebuttal.

However, if the 2nd letter is already written, and the 'submitter' is in Pelosi's office, waiting for Trump's rebuttal, then it would follow the rules. 
And no action against the VP or cabinet could stop it. 

If extremely paranoid (or under serious threat), there could be several copies of the 2nd letter and multiple 'submitters' to get it through (although this is getting seriously 'Hollywood silly').

[lummy 4]

Quote

However, if the 2nd letter is already written, and the 'submitter' is in Pelosi's office, waiting for Trump's rebuttal, then it would follow the rules. 
And no action against the VP or cabinet could stop it. 

What if Pres has 16 letters of "you're fired" made ahead of time, submits his rebuttal , then hands the letters to his cabinet. Is that second letter still valid if the Cabinet is no longer?

 

[Phil1111 1,088]

2 hours ago, billvon said:

I'd perhaps put down the shovel at this point?

Airdvr is scratching the ground with his bare hands. Blameworthy subjects must be found because 74 million others are

also looking for justification.

[jakee 1,354]

6 hours ago, lummy said:

How is this clear?

he shall resume the powers and duties of his office -->unless <--- the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President 
 

It does not say until

Sorry, you're right. Typically for your Constitution, the language is unclear

In practical terms you'd hope it shouldn't be an issue anyway since there's no reason a veep with his shit together couldn't get a second letter delivered 5 minutes after the President delivers his. Assuming they would be that sensible is probably wishful thinking though.

[headoverheels 329]

Last summer, when protesters were pulling down historic monuments and statues, Trump issued an order to charge violators to the maximum limit of the law.  My limited understanding is that it didn't change a law, but changed operating practice to maximize the penalty.

Anyway, https://www.foxnews.com/politics/capitol-rioters-prison-trump-executive-order-federal

10 years, baby.

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by headoverheels

[headoverheels 329]

Pence is getting it from both sides.  Realistic R's are telling him to exercise the 25th and oust Trump, and QANON types are calling him a traitor and threatening his life for certifying the election.

He had to follow through on the ceremonial Electoral vote counting -- really no getting around that.   He doesn't have to execute the 25th, especially when he can just wait for 12 days, so I cannot see him doing it.

 

[jakee 1,354]

7 hours ago, lummy said:

What if Pres has 16 letters of "you're fired" made ahead of time, submits his rebuttal , then hands the letters to his cabinet. Is that second letter still valid if the Cabinet is no longer?

Isn’t that just the fun bit? 
 

In that case with the process already underway I’m sure the veep’s second letter would still be accepted and if challenged the courts would rule in their favour. The process as enumerated in the constitution can only work if the veep stays veep and the cabinet stays the cabinet.

[jakee 1,354]

9 hours ago, airdvr said:

If you'll get a towel and wipe the spittal off your screen you'll see that I said the left owns some of it.  They were so sure the polls were correct that many of them didn't even bother to vote. 

They own none of it. They didn’t do any of it. You did it. It’s your fault.

Man. Up.

Edited January 8, 2021 by jakee

[ryoder 1,558]

20 hours ago, billvon said:

And the right begins the job of trying to blame Antifa, and Soros, and BLM, and Hillary, and scientists, and a pizza place in Washington, DC for their criminal actions.  Trumpies have already claimed that it was Antifa in disguise doing all the rioting.  To quote John Belushi:

"I ran out of gas! I got a flat tire! I didn’t have change for cab fare! I lost my tux at the cleaners! I locked my keys in the car! An old friend came in from out of town! Someone stole my car! There was an earthquake! A terrible flood! Locusts! IT WASN’T MY FAULT, I SWEAR TO GOD!"

What a bunch of priviledged, entitled weasels.

 

[kallend 1,834]

Sore losers make history.

Only three previous outgoing presidents -- John Adams in 1801, John Quincy Adams in 1829 and Andrew Johnson in 1869 -- refused to attend their successors' inaugurations. Trump makes four.

[SkyDekker 1,301]

1 hour ago, ryoder said:

 

The part of of this "ANTIFA did it" narrative I find hard to understand is: how did these great gravy seal patriots let a bunch of beta cuck soyboys storm and occupy the Capitol right under their noses?

[SkyDekker 1,301]

Stories coming out now how Acting Defence Secretary did not allow Virginia National Guards to be deployed as requested by congressional leaders and Virginia Governor.

Capitol under siege, coordinated and urged by the president with federal entities refusing backup.

[sfzombie13 320]

10 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Stories coming out now how Acting Defence Secretary did not allow Virginia National Guards to be deployed as requested by congressional leaders and Virginia Governor.

Capitol under siege, coordinated and urged by the president with federal entities refusing backup.

that takes it out of the insurrection league and places it squarely into the coup ballpark.  and with rudy on tape calling for blood and the rest of the video we have, it should be a no-brainer.  who wants to put money on all of it going away?  maybe a few token prosecutions.

[SkyDekker 1,301]

24 minutes ago, sfzombie13 said:

that takes it out of the insurrection league and places it squarely into the coup ballpark.  and with rudy on tape calling for blood and the rest of the video we have, it should be a no-brainer.  who wants to put money on all of it going away?  maybe a few token prosecutions.

Should also be noted that all living defence secretaries specifically mentioned the current acting defence secretary in their written warning last week.