1 1
tstar

Thinking of doing a Hybrid IAD/AFF Training Scenerio

Recommended Posts

Late this fall I did an intro Tandem (Yikes!!) jump at the closest DZ to me and couldn't stop thinking about it! I went on a training tandem jump a week later to make sure it was something I wanted to pursue after looking at the costs of everything... Gawd!!! The training jump went really well!! I was surprised at how hard it was to pull the main ripcord on that tandem rig, took more umph then I expected I guess.

Anyway, I have two DZs I'm looking at for training in the spring. One is a little less then an hour away (DZ1), the other a little over two hours away (DZ2). DZ1 only does AFF while DZ2 only offers IAD. After a lot of research, I think the optimum training scenario for me would be to start training at DZ2 completing category B (IAD 4 or 5??) then transition to AFF at DZ1 to finish up.

I really think that canopy flight and landing is crucial in the beginning, from what I see in the statistics most accidents occur then. Another concern I have is DZ1's small landing  zone which ends in a chain link fence (assuming the predominate easterly wind), So my thought process is to gain some canopy experience before I work on stable free fall.

Being ignorant of skydiving’s etiquette or unwritten laws, is it taboo to plan on switching schools like that?? I certainly do NOT want to offend a DZO!! I would be upfront with both DZOs about my plan...

What do you think??

Tim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like your thinking, but unfortunately it’s not that a DZ will be upset that you’re going to the competition, it’s more that the training sequence in each case is a series of steps that builds on the last. It’s not impossible or unheard of, but you’ll lose some ground and pay more probably. I think your concerns and considerations are entirely valid and ones to think about. 
Hopefully someone local to you that jumps at those DZ’s will weigh in. This deserves a good discussion. 
In part it depends on your learning style; AFF is more just-do-it, while IAD is more incremental. But it’s so dependent on the dz culture and instructional staff — that makes a difference too. 
Wendy P. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for your insight!

I understand the building blocks of each style and would be OK if I had to take ONE AFF "remedial" jump to bring me up to speed in that training discipline... If nothing else to make the instructors more comfortable.

My learning style is an interesting point I hadn't considered. Like SCUBA diving I was very much a "just do it" and jump right in person (pun intended)... In other areas I prefer to really study and learn all I can before attempting something, like stained glass or repairing something on one of our vehicles. I think canopy flight and free fall are definitely going to have to be a "Just Do It!, it seems to me to be an experience based  "get a feel for it" type of thing. There are no wind tunnels anywhere near me so that's out, Not that you can learn to fly a canopy in a wind tunnel! lol

Tim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Found this in the SIM…

https://uspa.org/SIM/2-1#1G5

Crossover training [E] 

1.     Students may transfer after the first or subsequent jumps to another training method after demonstrating sufficient knowledge and skill in the areas of equipment, aircraft, exits, freefall maneuvers, deployment, emergency procedures, canopy control, and rules and recommendations to enter into that program at a comparable level of proficiency and training.

2.     Students previously trained in a tandem program may continue in a harness-hold program or must demonstrate a solo exit and practice deployment with stability in the IAD or static-line program prior to advancing to freefall.

3.     Students who have completed at least two tandem jumps and demonstrated the ability to reliably pull the drogue release at the correct altitude, maintain heading and a stable body position, without requiring any control or altitude prompts from the tandem instructor, may progress to single instructor AFF jumps after completion of solo ground training.

4.     Students previously trained in a harness-hold program must have exited stable without assistance or performed a stable IAD or static-line jump with a practice deployment supervised by a USPA IAD or Static-Line Instructor prior to performing freefall jumps with any non-AFF-rated USPA Instructor.

5.     Students previously trained in Categories A-C in SL, IAD and tandem programs may jump with one AFF instructor after demonstrating the AFF wind tunnel requirements.

Tim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if it were me in your situation, i would do the iad up to at least the 2d or 3d freefall jump, 10 second delay.  if you're getting it quickly, stay there and finish.  if it takes you a bit to get stable, like it did for me and a couple of others at my dz, go to the aff and they'll probably start you at cat c or d, maybe b, depending on what you've gotten done so far.  if that all happens and you get through with no repeats, you should have 12-16 jumps (not too sure about the aff dive flows).  that leaves you some coached jumps or jumping with a d license holder until you get your license. 

of course this is all speculation.  i have never seen you jump, nor do i know where you are, let alone if they will even do this.  i do know that learning to skydive with a tight landing area is better in the long run, provided you don't get hurt first.  ours is about 2600' x 300' (the size of the grass strip with about 100' on each side of it) with a river, trees, powerlines, and lots of buildings surrounding it.  they had to have a waiver to train students, and a training tandem is required first.  every now and then we have a student hit the fence.  i did once when a gust blew me way off course at about 200' on final.  almost made it over, but i had to do a plf off the top rail.

i made the mistake of doing a lot of jumps as the extra seat on a tandem load out of a 182 and lost some of my formation skills i wasn't very good at in the first place.  be careful and don't do that.  also, when they teach you how to plf, practice that a lot more often than they make you, since it will save you from an injury at some point.  they taught us plfs in airborne school for the first week.  in a first jump course, it usually lasts for a half hour or so.  i'm not gonna say much about it, since you don't need to learn how to skydive on the internet.  the main thing is to roll and keep your feet and knees together, they don't have to look pretty.  i wrote an article on plfs here.

don't over think it, listen to your instructors, and prepare for a plf every time you land (that way, if you're going slow enough you stand up, if not, no injuries) and you'll be fine.  welcome to the family.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That was my thoughts exactly! The IAD DZ is a two hour drive making it fours of driving and getting in as many jumps as I can... being 60 now, that isn't easy anymore! I suppose like everyone else I want to get certified quickly, being realistic I just hope I can get my A before summer work picks up and kills any jumping until fall again...

PLF off the top rail of a fence... Friday Freakout material??? Ouch... I'm off to read your article next, thank you for that!!! Funny thing is that I was slated for jump school when I was assigned to the 82nd as a FACP, I would practice PLFs with the grunts off of tables (after a few too many beers)... Of course that was 40 years ago.

Using Goggle earth satellite image and the scale on it, DZ1's landing zone is 500' X 460'. Is that small for a first timer to try and stick? If it's not I'll consider going AFF all the way... I do like the idea of free fall right away and starting to get the feel of it.

I know that I DO over think things, but once I get my plan decided on I'll just be a sponge and listen to everything the instructors say. I'm in their domain and I humbly understand that...

Thanks for the welcome and I can't wait for spring!!!

Tim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Found this in the Category C Intro in the SIM, which is in-line with what I'm hoping to do;

Crossover students to AFF who have completed Category B in the IAD and static-line program will need additional training on the AFF climbout, set-up, and count; AFF freefall communications; use of the altimeter in freefall; and the main parachute deployment device, including deployment device malfunctions. IAD and static-line students may make the first jump in this category with one AFF Instructor on the recommendation of the USPA IAD or Static-Line Instructor and with the concurrence of the USPA AFF Instructor.

Is it spring yet????

Tim

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i just looked at your profile to see if i could figure out which dz has that landing area.  if it is accurate, and you are in grove city, i would recommend skydive pa.  haven't jumped there yet, but folks at my dz have and love the people there.  i called to check on training for a friend once and when i told them where i jumped, they told me to say hi to some people.  if that is the dz you are avoiding due to a small landing area, forget about that.  i found a picture of ours, but it from a different height and hard to compare the two. 

i marked out the landing area in yellow, but most of it is also a grass runway.  the little white dot in the middle of one yellow line is the hangar, 40'x40' for reference and the runway takes up the whole space at 2600'.  the trees on the river side are in the way of the prevailing winds, so most of the time you get cross wind landings, and some sketchy rotors sometimes.  that's what got me, a good gust.  all i did was pick up my feet and i almost made it over the rail, but i absorbed the impact and didn't get hurt at all.

the thing you have to remember about landing is not just how big the landing area is, but also how many "outs" you have if you can't make it back.  at mine, there aren't very many good outs, the best one is across the river.  at skydive pa, there are a few good ones close to the landing area from the looks of the picture.  if you live in grove city pa, you would do good to learn from them.  having said that, i don't personally know them, but if the folks at my dz like them they should be good.

dz.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes Grove City is the closest DZ to me, about an hour away and where I did my two tandems at. From my limited experience there I do have to agree with you that they are super!! No question!!

Skydive Rick's is the IAD DZ I was considering to start with...

OK... So I'm over thinking this!I'll just jump into AFF with Grove City!

Tim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear tstar,

I agree with your logic.

The emotional training benefits of tandem fade after 3 or 4 jumps.

The canopy training benefits of S/L and IAD fade after a half dozen jumps.

The freefall training benefits of AFF fade after a dozen jumps.

Tunnels are just cool and can extend to advanced skills. But again, tunnel will teach you nothing about steering your parachute.

No one system is perfect, it is just "best" at a different level of the learning process. I have taught with all the different systems and prefer the sequence above with a bit of tunnel time before progressing to AFF.

I have dropped hundreds of S/L and IAD students. I have done harness-hold jumps with hundreds more freefall students and more than 4,000 tandems.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/27/2020 at 6:22 AM, tstar said:

Late this fall I did an intro Tandem (Yikes!!) jump at the closest DZ to me and couldn't stop thinking about it! I went on a training tandem jump a week later to make sure it was something I wanted to pursue after looking at the costs of everything... Gawd!!! The training jump went really well!! I was surprised at how hard it was to pull the main ripcord on that tandem rig, took more umph then I expected I guess.

Anyway, I have two DZs I'm looking at for training in the spring. One is a little less then an hour away (DZ1), the other a little over two hours away (DZ2). DZ1 only does AFF while DZ2 only offers IAD. After a lot of research, I think the optimum training scenario for me would be to start training at DZ2 completing category B (IAD 4 or 5??) then transition to AFF at DZ1 to finish up.

I really think that canopy flight and landing is crucial in the beginning, from what I see in the statistics most accidents occur then. Another concern I have is DZ1's small landing  zone which ends in a chain link fence (assuming the predominate easterly wind), So my thought process is to gain some canopy experience before I work on stable free fall.

Being ignorant of skydiving’s etiquette or unwritten laws, is it taboo to plan on switching schools like that?? I certainly do NOT want to offend a DZO!! I would be upfront with both DZOs about my plan...

What do you think??

Tim

Easy one. SAVE ALL THE MONEY, go to FL in the winter and crush it. Seriously. 

 

Not feasible? Pick the DZ with the BIG plane and stick with the AFF program. 

Stop looking at stats, because the category your looking at usually involves experienced pilots... 

YOU need only focus on YOUR next jump!  

Edited by timski
more...
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It does seem the optimal approach....

A couple of tandems

A couple of IADs

A couple of AFFs

Tunnel time at night

A couple more AFFs

I think I'll approach both DZOs and ask them about combining the different training methods. I'll update this as I progress.

Timski - If I could, I'd go to Phoenix. My daughter is there, Matter of fact I bought her a Tandem for her birthday last month. The video and pictures are truly priceless!!!!

Off subject, nice name and I was an avid snow skier! Now I just cruise when I can get to a mountain..

Tim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem with this idea is that the student progression is already established.

What you're quoting from the SIM is for people who are switching methods because they have to.

 

While I agree with Rob that a training method that incorporates a variety of methods would be ideal, it's not how it's done in the 'real world'.

Either AFF or S/L-IAD will get you to your A. 
Never forget that the A isn't the end, it's just the beginning.

Either will start you off on a big, docile canopy appropriate for students. 
While the majority of accidents do happen on landing, student injuries aren't super common.

Switching around between methods, and particularly DZs will hurt more than help. 
You'll spend a lot of time & money repeating stuff and demonstrating skills you've already shown to someone else.

I believe you are overthinking it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear tstar,

The best skydiving schools (e.g. Eloy, Arizona and Perris Valley, California) have wind tunnels on site and their AFF instructors integrate a few minutes of tunnel time into the AFF Program.

I strongly urge you to get a few minutes of tunnel time before your first freefall.

As for timing .... December through March can be wet months in Southern California. OTOH they are the best months to jump in Arizona. Please don't wait until summer, because both those DZs get "stinking hot" during summer. Both DZ also hav bunk houses, restaurants, bars, gear shops, etc.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm afraid that I won't be flying anywhere for training or fun jumping, money's too tight for that. I need all I can get for training and gear... I'm hoping the Republicans in the senate bend and OK the 1.4k uptick in the relief bill!

I wonder how many leaf blowers strapped together it would take to get my fat ass in the air? Off to youtube!

Tim

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm going to throw out something different to consider.  Which dz is most likely to become your home dz, the one you will jump most at? For most jumpers that's the one closest to where you  live. 

Doing your student training at that dz has several advantages.  The obvious one is travel time and cost savings. The less obvious is the social side of skydiving.  By the time you have an A license,   people will know you and it will be a bit easier to find folks to jump with than if you show up as an unknown with a fresh A license.  You'll also have a chance to get to know the local riggers before you have to decide who is going to pack your reserve. 

Regardless,  don't forget to bring beer (or an equally yummy non alcoholic equivalent) and hang out getting to know people after your jumps.   And have fun!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Equally important! That is a consideration...

I would finish up with my "home DZ", if I even do the hybrid route. The IAD DZ works out to be about $1k cheaper with no re-dos. That's a lot of money towards gear!

decisions... decisions... 

Tim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)

Damn... I need to find that deal!

Here's where I'm at.  I have X amount of money for training. Gear is at least a year, probably two years out,  depending on how many jumps I can get in to where I'll be content with a certain wing load for (hopefully) a good long while... I will be saving up for gear during that time period. I mean, I  certainly do not want to waste money but I don't mind spending more for a better outcome in the end. I don't know how much rental gear costs actually...

I like IAD's baby steps/building blocks approach, especially concentrating on canopy skills right away...

I also like AFF's jump right in and let's get this party started style...

I think I'm right back where I started! LOL 

Tim

Edited by tstar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you probably don't want to buy gear like i do, gutter gear we used to call it.  you may want an aad also, that's another grand right there.  get some shit gear when it's time but put an aad in it.  and don't listen to folks like me on the internet.  that's the big one right there.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, sfzombie13 said:

you probably don't want to buy gear like i do, gutter gear we used to call it.  you may want an aad also, that's another grand right there.  get some shit gear when it's time but put an aad in it.  and don't listen to folks like me on the internet.  that's the big one right there.

He's got a point... Don't take too much advice off the internet. That's one of the reasons Skybytch's post is so on point -- you'll develop relationships, and that's how you get the deals sometimes, and certainly how you get advice from people that know you, and not just their preconceptions.

You can definitely get some reasonable gear for cheap -- but it takes a long time and luck (generally in the form of contacts), as well as lower standards in terms of what it looks like, and maybe even how it fits to a point (you want to be safe and reasonably comfortable -- you really don't have to have it tailormade if you're a fairly average size). You also have to be ready to buy it when it's ready, rather than expecting to have the perfect deal drop into your lap at just the right time. Every now and then that happens, but that's even more luck.

Right now with winter, would you still be doing a student program? Or do the dzs close in the winter? If they're closed, see if there's a FB page for the local jumpers for each dropzone, or for the area in general, subscribe, and just start listening. Most of it won't make sense (or it won't even be skydiving related in the winter). But you might start to get a feel for which one has more people you'll be sociable with, and in the long run that'll help.

Wendy P.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everything is shut down till at least April here...

Good idea about each DZ's FB page, I'll check that out, I only joined FB to buy used skydiving gear. I read that somewhere on the internet... lol

I'm not unfamiliar with internet research and forums and I do not take everything I read as gospel on here. But I certainly don't mind standing on the shoulders of giants!!

Ultimately it's up to me how to get trained... Ultimately, when I'm in the sky it's up to me if I live or die...

That's poetic huh?  lol

Tim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

1 1