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outdoort

Infinity I-55 vs. I-56 for first rig.

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Hey everyone. First post. Been doing a ton of reading and learning so far on skydiving. I'm completely new. I haven't even made a first skydive. It may sound ridiculous to some of you this question I have but, please hold it. I know I'm going to love this. I have done para gliding and also the highest bungie jump in south america, I know myself and this skydiving sport is something I'm gonna get into and love.

If the equipment was cheaper and more readily available, Id def be willing to buy after getting my A license this spring, but Its not. As I'm able to get ahold of money for the equipment here, I want to make purchases so I can slowly acquire things. I plan on buying my container new, and with a selection in mind, I can then keep an eye out for used canopies for the next 2-3 months, hence why I want to make a decision on a container size and get my order in to velocity for this container. 

My weight is about 195lbs. I can drop it down to 190 lbs. as I gain and loose weight over the year honestly.

If you can assume a guy like myself will "get it" fairly quickly and learn rapidly, maybe that would help you give suggestions.

I know from my research I've done so far I need to start out at 1:1 wing loading ( probably under loaded through my a license training). At 195, can i assume 20lbs worth of gear? 30 lbs?

I'm not so sure I'll be the most aggressive on downsizing canopies, idk, I wish it was spring already so I can get started!!   Just not sure If I should go with the I -55 or the I-56. Infinity's canopy chart says I can fit a pilot zpx 210 in the i-55 and also a pilot zpx 230 in the I-56.   I'm looking towards the aerodyne pilot as my first canopy and with the zpx material I can upsize the canopy for the the container size...

Of course Id like to keep this container for more than a year or two. I may not sell it at all, but just buy another if I decide I absolutely want to downsize canopies further.     IDk, what do you all think?     Hoping for some advice more than just "wait until you get licensed"  These containers from infinity have a lead time of 2-3 months so buying in the next month would allow me to start using my own gear next spring/summer...

 

 

Thanks for having me here, and appreciate the thoughts. -Tyler.

 

 

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Hey Sundevlil! I was wondering what the “n” and “w” designators were with the infinity containers... ?

i called velocity last thursday twice and left a voicemail and havent heard back from them. Maybe they will call me Monday. 

 

Whats ur exit weight and how many jumps u have/ experience? Thanks!

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29 minutes ago, outdoort said:

Hey Sundevlil! I was wondering what the “n” and “w” designators were with the infinity containers... ?

i called velocity last thursday twice and left a voicemail and havent heard back from them. Maybe they will call me Monday. 

 

Whats ur exit weight and how many jumps u have/ experience? Thanks!

The good folks at VSE will get back to you. I've found that messages sent through their "contact us" response form get answered within a few hours when they are there/open. Blake Johnson has helped me lately, he's very quick to respond.

The "N" is for narrow. W is likely wide. I now weigh 200 without gear (you should figure 30 pounds). I've been jumping since dinosaurs roamed the earth, and enjoy a wingload that makes landing easy and non-stressful.

The last 2 times I bought a new Infinity, I let them determine the best size, I just told them what canopies would be in it, and that I wanted it to fit nicely.

 

Edited by sundevil777

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On 12/12/2020 at 8:08 PM, outdoort said:

If the equipment was cheaper and more readily available (...)

It is generally recommended for new jumpers to start with used gear. If you are on the budget, that advice applies even more.

Used gear if purchased right has very minimal depreciation, so you will be able to recoup most if not all of the money when you sell.

Used gear allows you to test and experiment with things that work and don't work for you, with things you like and you don't like. When you are fresh and new to skydiving, you don't know yet what you will like and what you won't. I recommend you look into buying used gear.

And how that generally goes? You figure out the canopy size and style you want, e.g. pilot zpx 230 or 210 and try to find rig with that canopy. Second hand skydiving equipment isn't all that available, so shopping for particular set may take you many months. In other words, you may not ever see used i-55 / i-56 with pilot zpx 210/230 fitting your body dimensions for sale.

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Got a call from velocity today. Basically he just said “no he wouldnt be comfortable sizing me and selling me a rig until after aff”.

 

i can see not wanting someone to waist their money on a rig they grow out of too quickly, but aside from that idk why people arent comfortable recommending a rig that has a canopy sized 1:1 or less for a beginner. 

 

i thought the general consensus was to stay at 1:1 wing load as a beginner.  Everything that ive read so far says exactly that!  

 

i feel like if i grow out of my rig then its not the biggest deal because id probably keep it and just buy another.  I can see myself very often wanting to jump with a canopy thats safe and mellow (enjoying the views up in the sky).


 

In a ideal world, yes id get my a license before buying gear but idk how things are gonna work out because i have been keeping an eye out for used gear too. I tend to have a hard time saving money as im self employed so hopefully i even have the cash at the time i may see something come up for sale...

 

i guess at this point im gonna hold off buying new, and just keep an eye out for a appropriately sized container that will hold a 210-230 sized main and a similar size reserve...

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3 hours ago, outdoort said:

Got a call from velocity today. Basically he just said “no he wouldnt be comfortable sizing me and selling me a rig until after aff”.

 

i can see not wanting someone to waist their money on a rig they grow out of too quickly, but aside from that idk why people arent comfortable recommending a rig that has a canopy sized 1:1 or less for a beginner. 

 

i thought the general consensus was to stay at 1:1 wing load as a beginner.  Everything that ive read so far says exactly that!  

 

i feel like if i grow out of my rig then its not the biggest deal because id probably keep it and just buy another.  I can see myself very often wanting to jump with a canopy thats safe and mellow (enjoying the views up in the sky).


 

In a ideal world, yes id get my a license before buying gear but idk how things are gonna work out because i have been keeping an eye out for used gear too. I tend to have a hard time saving money as im self employed so hopefully i even have the cash at the time i may see something come up for sale...

 

i guess at this point im gonna hold off buying new, and just keep an eye out for a appropriately sized container that will hold a 210-230 sized main and a similar size reserve...

I think what he was uncomfortable with was taking your money before you have started jumping.  It is a sign of integrity, not wanting to take advantage of you.

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Yup, before you've even made a first jump it is way too early for you to think about a rig. Maybe just maybe you could look into getting your own altimeter or jumpsuit or helmet but you should definitely stick with the student rigs available at the DZ where you do your training.

Part of the reason is the typical quick progression through canopy sizes, while a rig will at best fit three sizes (one very tight, one good, and one very loose). And while the 1:1 wingload advice is generically OKish, it is definitely not universally applicable. Some people should be on much lower wingloading, dependent on both their exit weight and their skill level. Even though you say you will "get it" fairly quickly, I will assume you are a slow learner until proven otherwise. This sport is strange, and requires a certain mindset and certain aptitude which is very difficult to predict in advance. Call me conservative, but I've seen too many low-experience people get hurt flying canopies they had no business flying.

If you already know you will love this sport, great! Channel all that energy into your AFF course, and be eager to learn as much as possible about skydiving in a safe and enjoyable way (in that order). After you've found your way around in the sky, and have proven your abilities under canopy, it will be time to decide on buying a rig and canopies. By then you will have local instructors who should be able to give you valuable advice tailored to your circumstances and skills. And remember that downsizing is overrated.

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Thanks for someone new adding their thoughts! Totally respect all of your thoughts. Of course I'm not trying to argue, I'm probably going to listen to you guys. But after additional thought I really still don't get the problem here with this...

A infinity i-56 will hold a pilot 230 in zpx. That is .95 wing loading for me. Based on the reading Ive done and seen posts from other indivduals here, that is very conservative for a guy 190lbs. ( I get that if your a really light weight person, your wing loading will be less generally as a beginner canopy needs to be a certain size to fly well for a beginner).

Then, if i even want to downsize in the future, I can go to 210, and 190 sq. ft canopies (irrelevant to my situation, but the infinity canopy chart lists a 188 pilot as it will fit, and the guy from velocity said that those charts just show the largest canopies that will fit, and they dont list canopies that are smaller that will also fit. So presumably I can fit a Pilot170 inside too?)

So start off .95 wingload on a 230 pilot zpx

a few hundred jumps later end up (maybe not) on a 190

This chart from this website seems to agree:

https://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

200-300 jumps on a rental aint happening for me, Rental costs on that many jumps would end up purchasing this container and probably the canopy as well...

 

So are what you guys telling me here, that I may graduate with my A license, and decide that I need a container that will hold a larger canopy than a 230 for at least the next 50 jumps or more?  Keep in mind, If I walk away with the A license and need to rent gear for another 20 jumps or so before downsizing to that 230, I can do that before wearing my own rig...

Or are you guys saying, I may walk away with my A license and be jumping a 190 and smaller right away?   I'm going to say no, because that would violate the wing load chart, and I'm a conservative guy. I would probably plan on jumping that pilot 230 (or maybe 210) for the next 100-200 jumps.

 

Like I said, this is just conversation, I'm not trying to dig the answer I want out of any of you lol, but I feel like people dont want to give suggestions on this kind of stuff because behind the computer screen, no one knows what kind of person I am... Am I athletic, do I participate in other sports, hand eye cordination, fear level, quick or slow learner, etc...   But that is why I qualified my original post, assuming a guy like me would pick things say somewhere in the middle of fast vs slow learning (I'm willing to bet i obtain these skills faster than average).

 

Thanks a bunch guys, looking forward to sticking around here and learing more and more. Kinda wish the forums were more active, but I guess that's probably because the sport isn't as large as some other hobbies/ topics of forums i belong to.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, outdoort said:

Thanks for someone new adding their thoughts! Totally respect all of your thoughts. Of course I'm not trying to argue, I'm probably going to listen to you guys. But after additional thought I really still don't get the problem here with this...

A infinity i-56 will hold a pilot 230 in zpx. That is .95 wing loading for me. Based on the reading Ive done and seen posts from other indivduals here, that is very conservative for a guy 190lbs. ( I get that if your a really light weight person, your wing loading will be less generally as a beginner canopy needs to be a certain size to fly well for a beginner).

Then, if i even want to downsize in the future, I can go to 210, and 190 sq. ft canopies (irrelevant to my situation, but the infinity canopy chart lists a 188 pilot as it will fit, and the guy from velocity said that those charts just show the largest canopies that will fit, and they dont list canopies that are smaller that will also fit. So presumably I can fit a Pilot170 inside too?)

So start off .95 wingload on a 230 pilot zpx

a few hundred jumps later end up (maybe not) on a 190

This chart from this website seems to agree:

https://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

200-300 jumps on a rental aint happening for me, Rental costs on that many jumps would end up purchasing this container and probably the canopy as well...

 

So are what you guys telling me here, that I may graduate with my A license, and decide that I need a container that will hold a larger canopy than a 230 for at least the next 50 jumps or more?  Keep in mind, If I walk away with the A license and need to rent gear for another 20 jumps or so before downsizing to that 230, I can do that before wearing my own rig...

Or are you guys saying, I may walk away with my A license and be jumping a 190 and smaller right away?   I'm going to say no, because that would violate the wing load chart, and I'm a conservative guy. I would probably plan on jumping that pilot 230 (or maybe 210) for the next 100-200 jumps.

 

Like I said, this is just conversation, I'm not trying to dig the answer I want out of any of you lol, but I feel like people dont want to give suggestions on this kind of stuff because behind the computer screen, no one knows what kind of person I am... Am I athletic, do I participate in other sports, hand eye cordination, fear level, quick or slow learner, etc...   But that is why I qualified my original post, assuming a guy like me would pick things say somewhere in the middle of fast vs slow learning (I'm willing to bet i obtain these skills faster than average).

 

Thanks a bunch guys, looking forward to sticking around here and learing more and more. Kinda wish the forums were more active, but I guess that's probably because the sport isn't as large as some other hobbies/ topics of forums i belong to.

 

 

 

So when are we going to be reading an incident report about you. You have not even jumped and you know more than great people giving you the best advice and you know more than everyone. 

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33 minutes ago, skyderrill66 said:

So when are we going to be reading an incident report about you. You have not even jumped and you know more than great people giving you the best advice and you know more than everyone. 

No where have I said or hinted at that. Obviously complete newb here. And Ive shown appreciation so far for the experienced opinions here. Dont get offended just because Im trying to squeeze people for more info. Thats kinda the goal of the forum here.And by the way you havn't given shit for info in this thread so far, except just criticizing me.

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9 hours ago, outdoort said:

200-300 jumps on a rental aint happening for me, Rental costs on that many jumps would end up purchasing this container and probably the canopy as well...

 

So are what you guys telling me here, that I may graduate with my A license, and decide that I need a container that will hold a larger canopy than a 230 for at least the next 50 jumps or more?  Keep in mind, If I walk away with the A license and need to rent gear for another 20 jumps or so before downsizing to that 230, I can do that before wearing my own rig...

Nobody is suggesting you do 200-300 jumps on rental gear. I bought my own first rig at 150 jumps, which is a long time before buying own gear. Typically, at ~50 jumps you can expect instructors to start suggesting you get your own gear.

And right after you've done AFF, you are in no position yet to decide for yourself what canopy you need. AFF teaches you the bare basics required for safe skydiving (emergency procedures, dealing with the sensory overload, altitude awareness, basic stable body position, etc). Up to (and likely beyond) your A-license, your instructors will have the final say about whether a canopy is fit for you.

If you're OK with doing the first 50 jumps on rental gear, then there is no reason to go buy your own rig before that time. And by then you'll have a MUCH better idea of what you do and do not need, based on practical experience rather than on reading webforums and manufacturer size charts.

I'm not trying to discourage you from skydiving, far from it. I am trying to prevent you from becoming a statistic, or from wasting several thousand euros on the wrong stuff. So again my advice: do your AFF, enjoy your AFF, listen and learn as much as you can during that time, and start thinking about your own rig around the time you get your A license.

Edited by IJskonijn

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On 12/16/2020 at 6:02 PM, outdoort said:

And by the way you havn't given shit for info in this thread so far, except just criticizing me.

Get used to it ^_^.

There's quite an amount of people who do one two or five jumps and never go back to it. Go through classifieds, you will see so called "closet queens" that have very minimal jump numbers on them. Some students break their ankle or mess up in some other way very early and they are out of the sport for 1-2 years or forever.

The amount of different options, styles and features that rigs have are overwhelming.

Maybe, but maybe, you start jumping and you start hanging out with relative canopy work folks at your dropzone and maybe you will really want to focus on that? The training and gear that goes into relative canopy work is different than other types of skydiving. If you buy brand new shiny gear now and on jump 20-30 realize that you need something completely different, who will you be mad at? The infinity guys? Dropzone.com crowd for suggesting you something when you need something different?

Maybe as you start jumping, you will see somebody get hurt on infinity rig and want to use different type/brand. Maybe you will learn that you have some issue with your spine and need to fly more conservative canopy or use dacron lines. Maybe you will really be very awesome and decide to downsize faster and need smaller canopy & container. Maybe you will learn that your body type causes rig to not fit very well and you need belly band or hip rings. Or maybe hip rings cause the harness to sit weird on your butt and you don't want them? Maybe you will see that some people on the dropzone use colored lines which helps with packing and you decide you want that too. Maybe you need longer risers than standard. Maybe packing pilot 230zpx into infinity 55 is a bitch and after doing it 5 times you give up and decide you want different combo. Maybe maybe maybe. 

Don't get me wrong, but you are kind of like 4 year old kid that *knows very well* what's best for them but in reality they don't. There's nothing wrong with being beginner and there's nothing wrong with asking questions. Ultimately you can do whatever you want, it's your life and your money. Nobody knows you personally here. Skydiving is a hobby that requires some money, you better get used to that. You can save here or there but if you make bad choices people won't want to jump with you. Nobody wants to jump with a person that makes poor decisions.

Also, AFF on many dropzones REQUIRES rental gear. Rental gear has some extra features that normal rigs don't have (e.g. instructors can deploy from either left or right side). You will most likely not be allowed to jump your own rig during AFF - call and ask your dropzone to verify. Also, rental gear usually is basic and unified, so you learn and get familiar with certain things. One example could be that cutaway handle is red pillow and reserve handle is D shaped metal handle, called "silver". Once you get your very own rig, you can decide to get two red pillow handles. You can imagine that can get very confusing and dangerous very fast?

I attached the picture of rig with two pillow handles. They have different colors but I've seen rigs with two red pillow handles. I can almost guarantee that no dropzone will let you jump that during AFF.

pillow-handles.jpg

Edited by CoolBeans

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22 hours ago, outdoort said:

No where have I said or hinted at that. Obviously complete newb here. And Ive shown appreciation so far for the experienced opinions here. Dont get offended just because Im trying to squeeze people for more info. Thats kinda the goal of the forum here.And by the way you havn't given shit for info in this thread so far, except just criticizing me.

Your arrogance is what will get you hurt or killed. Your response is just what i thought you would respond. I wont recomend gear as you are still a wuffo. The reason i said you think you know it all is because several people keep telling you not to buy gear until 50+jumps and you still insist that you should buy gear. i myself dont have very many jumps but have been around and seen a lot. I dont sugar coat the things i say and if you fu%@ up i will tell you so. I have seen many people get hurt because of stupidity and dont want to see you do the same things. So is multiple people are telling you not to do something maybe you might want to stop and listen.

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yea fair enough. I'm going to take the advice here and get my a license first. Just wish we weren't in the beginning of winter lol.   I have seriously thought about flying south for a couple weeks to a drop zone in Fl or something.

 

If I could start taking this course next week I wouldn't be asking this question :)

 

By the way was wondering where the term wuffo came from? Just a forum thing here or a skydiving term for non jumpers?

Edited by outdoort

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8 minutes ago, outdoort said:

yea fair enough. I'm going to take the advice here and get my a license first. Just wish we weren't in the beginning of winter lol.   I have seriously thought about flying south for a couple weeks to a drop zone in Fl or something.

 

If I could start taking this course next week I wouldn't be asking this question :)

 

By the way was wondering where the term wuffo came from? Just a forum thing here or a skydiving term for non jumpers?

skydiving term for non jumper what for you jump from them planes

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3 hours ago, outdoort said:

Just wish we weren't in the beginning of winter lol.   I have seriously thought about flying south for a couple weeks to a drop zone in Fl or something.

You and me both, bro. But with the pandemic lockdowns happening all over the place (at least on this side of the pond) there's likely not much jumping this winter. Let's hope next summer season is better!

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So Looks like I'm gonna be driving a car home from Los Angeles (to pittsburgh). Gonna stop somewhere to make a jump.   Kinda thinking Skydive Kentucky, as that is where I think I'm going to get my A license.  I will keep an eye out for the weather tho, so mid to end of January when I'll be making this drive, it might be better for me to just do a tandem or something in Arizona, Texas?  idk Maybe a weekend of a few jumps.

 

If anyone has suggestions or wants to meet up at a drop zone let me know. Will be anywhere from Jan 10th -23rd.   Southern route L.A. to Arizona, to Dallas, and then working my way up to Pittsburgh from there.

 

Worth stopping at rigging innovations in Arizona? Maybe to try some containers on and possibly see if I feel they are comfortable, idk.  

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23 hours ago, CoolBeans said:

Get used to it ^_^.

There's quite an amount of people who do one two or five jumps and never go back to it. Go through classifieds, you will see so called "closet queens" that have very minimal jump numbers on them. Some students break their ankle or mess up in some other way very early and they are out of the sport for 1-2 years or forever.

The amount of different options, styles and features that rigs have are overwhelming.

Maybe, but maybe, you start jumping and you start hanging out with relative canopy work folks at your dropzone and maybe you will really want to focus on that? The training and gear that goes into relative canopy work is different than other types of skydiving. If you buy brand new shiny gear now and on jump 20-30 realize that you need something completely different, who will you be mad at? The infinity guys? Dropzone.com crowd for suggesting you something when you need something different?

Maybe as you start jumping, you will see somebody get hurt on infinity rig and want to use different type/brand. Maybe you will learn that you have some issue with your spine and need to fly more conservative canopy or use dacron lines. Maybe you will really be very awesome and decide to downsize faster and need smaller canopy & container. Maybe you will learn that your body type causes rig to not fit very well and you need belly band or hip rings. Or maybe hip rings cause the harness to sit weird on your butt and you don't want them? Maybe you will see that some people on the dropzone use colored lines which helps with packing and you decide you want that too. Maybe you need longer risers than standard. Maybe packing pilot 230zpx into infinity 55 is a bitch and after doing it 5 times you give up and decide you want different combo. Maybe maybe maybe. 

Don't get me wrong, but you are kind of like 4 year old kid that *knows very well* what's best for them but in reality they don't. There's nothing wrong with being beginner and there's nothing wrong with asking questions. Ultimately you can do whatever you want, it's your life and your money. Nobody knows you personally here. Skydiving is a hobby that requires some money, you better get used to that. You can save here or there but if you make bad choices people won't want to jump with you. Nobody wants to jump with a person that makes poor decisions.

Also, AFF on many dropzones REQUIRES rental gear. Rental gear has some extra features that normal rigs don't have (e.g. instructors can deploy from either left or right side). You will most likely not be allowed to jump your own rig during AFF - call and ask your dropzone to verify. Also, rental gear usually is basic and unified, so you learn and get familiar with certain things. One example could be that cutaway handle is red pillow and reserve handle is D shaped metal handle, called "silver". Once you get your very own rig, you can decide to get two red pillow handles. You can imagine that can get very confusing and dangerous very fast?

I attached the picture of rig with two pillow handles. They have different colors but I've seen rigs with two red pillow handles. I can almost guarantee that no dropzone will let you jump that during AFF.

pillow-handles.jpg

By the way Coolbeans, thanks for the awesome post. Yea, I was going to order my infinity with both red pillow blocks for the cutaway and reserve. I was sort of thinking the low profile d ring, but seeing vids of it catching on things, or other jumpers in advertently grapping the d ring kinda sold me on the pillow blocks.  

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2 hours ago, outdoort said:

By the way Coolbeans, thanks for the awesome post. Yea, I was going to order my infinity with both red pillow blocks for the cutaway and reserve. I was sort of thinking the low profile d ring, but seeing vids of it catching on things, or other jumpers in advertently grapping the d ring kinda sold me on the pillow blocks.  

Something to think about and this happened to me on my last malfunction i had a pillow for a reserve and it folded under my main lift web. Yes a metal reserve handle can snag.Just be aware their are pros and cons to either.  Another thing is a different color than the cutaway so when it hits the fan it is that much easier to identify. You also dont want either handle to be the same color as the harness and maybe even the ring covers. These are just my opinions but maybe something to consider. Good luck and be safe

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10 hours ago, skyderrill66 said:

Something to think about and this happened to me on my last malfunction i had a pillow for a reserve and it folded under my main lift web. Yes a metal reserve handle can snag.Just be aware their are pros and cons to either.  Another thing is a different color than the cutaway so when it hits the fan it is that much easier to identify. You also dont want either handle to be the same color as the harness and maybe even the ring covers. These are just my opinions but maybe something to consider. Good luck and be safe

And these considerations are really a good sign of why it's probably better to wait to buy gear, and wait even longer to buy new gear. There's plenty of used gear for you to find out what you don't like, and that's a much cheaper lesson.

What some other person said are the best options are generally the best options for them.

I have a silver reserve handle, and have never come close to snagging it. I'm very unlikely ever to use a pillow handle, and have considered getting a soft loop for the cutaway (but not done so). Whoa -- soft loop? See why you want to wait? Here's another thing to consider.

Enjoy the process of learning how to jump, and learning about gear (bother the packers on slow days and you'll learn a TON). Skydiving is about the doing and the journey, not the end.

Wendy P.

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