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hcsvader

400 jumps velo 111

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Like I said, if, as a DZ you allow a practice, then support that practice with coaching and education.



In the case that the coach works for the DZ, and is provided services through the DZ itself, then you might have a point. If they are going to allow the guy to jump the canopy, then their staff should support that jumper with whatever services the DZ offers.

However, I have NEVER seen a DZ that provides HP canopy coaching. I have seen DZs that will host HP canopy coaches, and allow them to coach/offer classes on their DZ, but at that point the coach is a separate entity from the DZ, and can refuse service to anyone they want, regardless of the position of the DZ.

Like Ian said, and it's the same thing I've always said, when a 'student' won't listen to lesson #1 when it's to upsize or switch canopies, what are the chances they will listen to anything else?

When it comes to HP canopy flight, there is no room for 'selective hearing'. You can't pick and choose the advice to listen to when it's coming from a qualified, experienced HP pilot/coach.

I'm not about to be blackmailed into being a part of what I believe to be an unsafe situation by the childish choices of another jumper. For the record, 'Coach me or I'll do it anyway and be less safe', amounts to, in my opinion, blackmail.

Of course it's retarded blackmail because the negative consequence being held over the coaches head is the health and well being of the student, and if the coach refuses to teach, they really have nothing to do with the actions/consequences of the student. So the coach really has nothing to lose, and the truth is they have more to lose in that scenario because if they agree to coach the student, who then gets injured or killed, they would be a party to those actions.

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Hey Ian,

Would you make the decision that he is in over his head based purely on 416 jumps and a Velocity 103, or would you let him do a jump and then decide?



I'd give them the benefit of the doubt and watch a jump or two. That said, I've never ever come across someone with that many jumps that was ready for that canopy (and I've seen people on a wing like that with less jumps). Not saying it's not possible, just saying I've never seen it.

Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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I wanted to jump the canopy. I understand why the coaching changed. The other thing is when this was started by guys like Rickster and then PD team there wasn't any coaching, those guys had to figure it out for themselves probably in the face of far more resistance than I'm having now

I've done nearly 100 jumps on it and I've worked hard to try to show that I am not a danger to other jumpers and I can land safely where I want to land it. I haven't hit anyone, or anything. It's not like every jump is lottery and I have no idea where I'm going to land or whether I'm going to land on my feet or not. If I'm going downwind I will slide it out on my ass. I plan my pattern and set up point before I get in the plane and then I fly that pattern and I land that pattern where I intend to. Unless I'm forced to change it due to other circumstances. It's been like that for the last couple hundred jumps.

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The other thing is when this was started by guys like Rickster and then PD team there wasn't any coaching, those guys had to figure it out for themselves



Rickster, yep. However, he was also jumping much different canopies than you are, doing much smaller turns than you, and had way more jumps than you before he started swooping slower canopies with smaller turns.

The PD team? Some of them did start in the early days, and for those guys, see the points I made about Rickster, the same applies to them. Some of the newer guys on the team started jumping after x-brace canopies, swooping and swoop comps were a regular and established thing, and I'm willing to bet they all had professional coaching and good mentors.

All that aside, you realize that you're pointing at the best of the best, and saying what you're doing is OK because that's what they did. Of course, you can see that your assumptions about them are wrong, but even if they did proceed the way you suggested, do you really think you're as good as those guys, and that you should be following their path? That seems might presumptuous of you, and if it turns out you're not quite a world-class canopy pilot, you're making a big mistake in following the footsteps of world-class canopy pilots.

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>Like i said find another coach, because he is obviously NOT getting a different canopy.
. . . .
>The DZ allows him to jump the canopy, given that, allow coaching.

Sure, allow it, but that doesn't mean that anyone will do it. Most skydivers prefer to not participate in someone else's demise.

>You can t have you cake and eat it too. Either help the guy or stop the guy.
>Dont stand back and say, Not my problem.

You can't save everyone. In most cases it's better to spend your time on someone you can help.

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ianmdrennan

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Hey Ian,

Would you make the decision that he is in over his head based purely on 416 jumps and a Velocity 103, or would you let him do a jump and then decide?



I'd give them the benefit of the doubt and watch a jump or two. That said, I've never ever come across someone with that many jumps that was ready for that canopy (and I've seen people on a wing like that with less jumps). Not saying it's not possible, just saying I've never seen it.

Ian



Thanks. I am a new S&TA and wanted to know what your approach would be. It sounds like a reasonable way to do it; let them prove that they are not up to the task.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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It sounds like a reasonable way to do it; let them prove that they are not up to the task.



Maybe this is too much of a tangent....but from seeing guys like this over the years, it is not just a question of if their landings look scary as shit or not. There are things to consider other than how deep in the corner they are, and other factors that get people who don't have the experience to back up their wing choice into trouble.

It's usually not... 5 deep in the corner landings followed by a chopper ride. Its the unusual situations... traffic, thin air, bad winds, low light, new landing area, and the famous "oh shit" situation where experience can mean the difference. Knowing when not to swoop... knowing when to dial things up and dial them down... knowing how to save your life when not swooping and shit happens.

What STA and coach types do is their own call, but it isn't as simple as just watching a landing or two to be able to determine if they will be the next grease spot of not. *edit to add- no disrespect meant to Ian or Doc in the reply... re-read it and sounded a bit dickheaded

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I am not being funny...I really think this must be a joke/troll attempt.

Until I see video...I don't believe any of this. And how does nobody from one of the "busiest DZ's in the world" not know who you are, or comment on any of this?

Sorry, this is a bunch of BS.

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It's usually not... 5 deep in the corner landings followed by a chopper ride. Its the unusual situations... traffic, thin air, bad winds, low light, new landing area, and the famous "oh shit" situation where experience can mean the difference. Knowing when not to swoop... knowing when to dial things up and dial them down... knowing how to save your life when not swooping and shit happens.



Agreed. But my point is that you can tell a lot of that about how they fly, their body language, etc even when they're not in trouble :)
BTW I didn't take any dickishness away from your post B|
Performance Designs Factory Team

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ianmdrennan


BTW I didn't take any dickishness away from your post B|



Me neither!

And I agree with Ian that you can tell if someone is flying well and is comfortable with a canopy under 'normal' conditions.

Erratic flying, jerky inputs, unwillingness to fly in deep brakes (or conversely, in full flight), rushing a HP turn, not creating separation in the pattern etc, etc are all signs that someone is being a passenger instead of a pilot and are causes for concern.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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>Erratic flying, jerky inputs, unwillingness to fly in deep brakes (or conversely, in full
> flight), rushing a HP turn, not creating separation in the pattern etc, etc are all signs
>that someone is being a passenger instead of a pilot and are causes for concern.

Although it is truly remarkable the justifications that people put forth for such behavior. "I was being crowded." "I was just pumping the brakes to get a little more glide." "I didn't want to turn too high and confuse people." "I knew I was getting a little low; I was fine with it."

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The other thing is when this was started by guys like Rickster and then PD team there wasn't any coaching, those guys had to figure it out for themselves probably in the face of far more resistance than I'm having now



1. Each of those people are the best of the best. Top in the WORLD.

2. Each of them had more jumps on a single canopy than you have total before downsizing.

I can remember reading an old parachutist I found one day. I was looking for really old nationals scores and maybe old draws. It talked about the SUPER small rocket canopy Rickster was jumping at the nationals.... It was a pink Sabre *150*

So you are comparing yourself to the BEST in the WORLD and not even close to emulating them.

If you were to follow Rickster, you would still be jumping an F111 7 cell at 400 jumps.

Finally... I know Rickster, Shannon, Ian.... You sir, are not them.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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lol, well yeah that's true I'm not, sir! I'm my own meat sack of chemicals granted the gift of being aware of its own existence for some debatable reason

for whatever the case may be, the people here have so far given me the chance to prove that I'm not up to flying this chute

Like DocPop said when people have died in skydiving it's not like skydiving stops, that person ceases to exist and skydiving carries on. So I'm really more concerned with showing I'm not a danger to other people which I think I'm doing.

Whether people believe anything I've written here or not I do not care. It's not much of a spectator sport in my opinion anyway it lasts for a couple of seconds. It's just about doing it and enjoying it. Like the rest of your life. Now piss off leave me alone and go enjoy yours. I'm not pissing on your chips so why are you pissing on mine?

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>I'm not pissing on your chips so why are you pissing on mine?

Because killing people I know (and some good friends of mine) counts as "pissing on my chips."

Plenty of people figure they're pretty good under canopy and are no danger to others. Danny Page thought that. He killed Bob Holler, a friend of mine. It devastated Molly, a very good friend of mine, who had been dating him for a few years.

Chris Stasky figured he was pretty good under canopy and had much the same attitude you had; told several people to "leave me alone" when they talked to him about his canopy flight issues. He killed Pat McGowan. Pat was my first 4 way coach; I knew his wife and his two kids well. He used to jump with a picture of all three of them in his helmet, and tell people "the only things important to me in this world are right here in my helmet."

Todd Fey thought something similar. He killed Roger Nelson, a guy who I only met a few times before he was killed by - again, someone like you.

Now I know you think you are nothing like these people. But based on your attitude here you sound a whole lot like Chris. And given that this keeps happening, your attitude that "I'm not pissing on your chips" rings pretty hollow. Neither is that drunk driver - at least until he takes out your family.

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Fair points and I'm truly sorry for your losses

I spend 60 hours+ in the air in an average work week. This doesn't mean I'm SuperNoob, but I do think it helps with staying calm, being aware and thinking clearly if things go sideways. On the other hand you could interpret it as giving a false sense of confidence going from something I have a lot of experience in to skydiving where I have low experience.

I envisage hitting every time. That said I know if I do it confidently and correctly I don't have to. I need to recognize as early as possible when something is wrong and take the right action to fix it.

The recognition process and having the skills to fix it is the key. I hit once and feel lucky to have learned a lot from it. It changed some things immediately and made me think about my decision making process before I get into the plane. I'm trying to move into the area of what I know I don't know at a rate I can deal with before finding something I didn't know I didn't know too late

There are all the other jumpers who aren't PD Team Members or World Class canopy pilots out there every day landing/swooping canopies bigger and smaller than mine

lots of people don't get the same ear bashing because they're not jumping xbraces, not trying to swoop, or thought to have enough jumps for their canopy.

I have seen people land in car parks, on run ways, hit other people, toggle turn really low, fly crazy patterns, land in trees and break ankles trying to land normally into wind. I've been as aggressive as I can be and I haven't done these things on my Velo, Katana or Xfire. That doesn't mean I can't in future, but

I'm a long way from being the most likely person on any given DZ to kill your friends just because of jump numbers and the canopy I'm flying

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ledballoon

Fair points and I'm truly sorry for your losses

I spend 60 hours+ in the air in an average work week. This doesn't mean I'm SuperNoob, but I do think it helps with staying calm, being aware and thinking clearly if things go sideways. On the other hand you could interpret it as giving a false sense of confidence going from something I have a lot of experience in to skydiving where I have low experience.

I'm a long way from being the most likely person on any given DZ to kill your friends just because of jump numbers and the canopy I'm flying



where are you making nearly 100 skydives a week?

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I wish you would get a clue man,, everyone wants you to be able to do the things you want to do,,, your just not ready. Plain and simple 400 jumps ain't shit, especially when your talking about velos, take some of those pills that make your wiener longer, then you won't need a velo and a death wish. Just chill the fuck out and get on a different wing, go back to the basics and teach yourself the right way. I was a lot like you just a few years ago and I took some advice and got off the fast track. It's a pretty awesome feeling being able to out swoop the guys on velos, especially when your on the canopy they got rid of.
We can't all be smart....

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ledballoon

but

I'm a long way from being the most likely person on any given DZ to kill your friends just because of jump numbers and the canopy I'm flying



But your attitude is a lot closer to killing yourself or someone else. And even if all you do is splatter yourself in the landing area because you bag of luck ran out before you filled a bag of experience, you make someone like me do the paperwork. We also have to listen to your momma talk about how you were "too cautious about skydiving to be hurt," while trying not to roll our eyes. And we have to face the other low-jump number jumpers about mortality in this sport (and some will quit).

So, really just fill out the top half of the incident form now and hand it to your S&TA, tell your parents your a total dumbshit and refuse to listen to way-more experienced jumpers than you because you know better, and keep playing Russian roulette.

You might be the next Totally Awesome Swooper Dude in the making, but more than likely you are just going to make a big divot somewhere.

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Jump more, post less!

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DSE

***Fair points and I'm truly sorry for your losses

I spend 60 hours+ in the air in an average work week. This doesn't mean I'm SuperNoob, but I do think it helps with staying calm, being aware and thinking clearly if things go sideways. On the other hand you could interpret it as giving a false sense of confidence going from something I have a lot of experience in to skydiving where I have low experience.

I'm a long way from being the most likely person on any given DZ to kill your friends just because of jump numbers and the canopy I'm flying



where are you making nearly 100 skydives a week?

I think he is a pilot or flies something else since he said, "going from something I have a lot of experience in to skydiving where I have low experience".
Your rights end where my feelings begin.

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bigbearfng


I'm a long way from being the most likely person on any given DZ to kill your friends just because of jump numbers and the canopy I'm flying




Do you only do hop and pops with no one else in the air with you?????????????

... at a dropzone that doesn't have to clean up the mess you make in front of woofos and other paying customers, including young children?
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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Now piss off leave me alone and go enjoy yours. I'm not pissing on your chips so why are you pissing on mine?



Well, if the only life at stake was yours and yours alone.... I could not give two shits anymore. I have no idea why anyone would be so stupid as to ignore advice from someone with 15X the experience... But I also realize I can't control you.

The best I can do is warn, and then hope your actions do not kill me, my wife, or any of my friends. As BillV stated, I have lost two friends to people with egos that sound much like what you are expressing here.

And the funny thing is when you flash the PD team as examples..... You are not showing their discipline, attitude, nor their progression. Shannon, Ian, Rickster - All professionals, all open to suggestions and inspite of all of their accomplishments less ego combined than you are showing here.....

So why do I care?
1. You don't know what you don't know. I have held numerous people together till the medics showed up, I have had a guy die on me while I tried to save his life. None of them thought they would screw up... Yet they did.

2. You might kill me or someone I love. It is pretty clear you don't care about the opinions of others. And it is pretty clear you think you know all you need to know. That thinking is dangerous and I don't want you to take someone else out when you screw up.

You mentioned spending 60 hrs a week in the air.... How would you look at me if I was doing whatever you are an expert at and was doing something you considered dangerous and a risk to your family and friends and told you to 'piss off and leave me alone'?

So please tell what DZ you jump at so I will not risk my life being in the air with you, and so I can ask my wife never to jump there either.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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>I spend 60 hours+ in the air in an average work week.

I once heard a first jump student tell me he didn't need the entire FJC because he rode motorcycles so he was used to high speeds and quick decisionmaking. Another one told me that he was a pilot and so didn't need any canopy instruction. The worst are the military jumpers with four static line jumps who ignore the entire FJC since "they've been through all of this before." That's pretty much a guarantee of a terrible Level I.

The only thing that prepares you for skydiving is skydiving, and the only thing that prepares you for HP canopy flight is HP canopy flight.

>There are all the other jumpers who aren't PD Team Members or World Class canopy
>pilots out there every day landing/swooping canopies bigger and smaller than mine

Yes. Many of them are now dead or crippled.

>lots of people don't get the same ear bashing because they're not jumping xbraces, not
>trying to swoop, or thought to have enough jumps for their canopy.

Right. People who progress more slowly and learn more at each step are generally less of a risk. Not always, of course, but usually.

>I'm a long way from being the most likely person on any given DZ to kill your
>friends just because of jump numbers and the canopy I'm flying

The other three people thought that as well.

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So as im sitting here talking on skype to a good mate who is in the hospital waiting to get his femur put back together.

do what makes you happy, but dont forget to wiegh your options
Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

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