chutem 0 #26 April 15, 2017 Calvin19************Yes, balloons can hover over the earth by using the different directions of wind and different altitudes. Can this be done at the same time as climbing to 40k' in a "reasonable" time? Very few planes can you take to 40,000ft and jump. But the answer to your question is anywhere from 1,000ft/min and up. It really depends on how much helium is wasted in the free lift. If 20,000lb extra were thrown into a balloon lifting only 2,000lb, it would take off like a rocket ship. Not asking how fast a balloon can climb, asking if you can "hover" a balloon over a certain area while at the same time climbing to 40k' in a reasonable amount of time? Longer answer: Assuming perfect conditions in the most ideal area in the world, maybe. If you use a tether. A 60,000' tether for something with ~4000lb inertial mass would weigh (assuming lightest material available) about 4000 pounds. That would probably leave a mark if it came lose and hit you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bjgraybeal 0 #27 April 15, 2017 Calvin19*** Rough estimate. If divided between 10 people, renting suits, and an established business, I would guess $10,000-$20,000. and a company who would do this could reuse the balloon and helium and rent the suits. This would keep their overhead low and possibly lower customer cost. A gas balloon envelope that can take "~2000lb" (OP's number) to 60k MSL would be really really big. If you find a manufacturer that will make a re-usable gas balloon to those specs I will give them a gold star. A big high five to whoever pays for it. Who I don't want to meet is the poor ground crew gathering up a few million square feet and thousands of pounds of fragile, expensive balloon. Well then I deserve a gold star. It is called a super pressure balloon. If it is to be reused then it is never fully deflated, but brought down and stored in a hanger. The balloon would not be as big as you think, somewhere in the neighborhood of 200,000 cubic feet volume. Weight would be around 100-150lb at the most. Sorry, you have met a poor ground crew member who has cleaned up the plastic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bjgraybeal 0 #28 April 15, 2017 Phil1111******Yes, balloons can hover over the earth by using the different directions of wind and different altitudes. LOL. How big of an area counts as 'hovering', how often do conditions in any given place make this feasible, and what range of altitudes would a balloon need to run through to make this happen? QuoteI don't know the final figures but those who would "need" to do it would find most prices reasonable. Ballpark figure? Rough estimate? How many zeroes before the decimal point? I must have missed that. I have about 10 launches, 4-5 hours PIC in hot air balloons and another 5-6 jumps from them. Somehow I missed the lessons on hovering. Might have been drunk that day. I could pull up info about hovering a balloon over a certain area, but since you are so knowledgeable I feel this would be in vain. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bjgraybeal 0 #29 April 15, 2017 chutem***************Yes, balloons can hover over the earth by using the different directions of wind and different altitudes. Can this be done at the same time as climbing to 40k' in a "reasonable" time? Very few planes can you take to 40,000ft and jump. But the answer to your question is anywhere from 1,000ft/min and up. It really depends on how much helium is wasted in the free lift. If 20,000lb extra were thrown into a balloon lifting only 2,000lb, it would take off like a rocket ship. Not asking how fast a balloon can climb, asking if you can "hover" a balloon over a certain area while at the same time climbing to 40k' in a reasonable amount of time? Longer answer: Assuming perfect conditions in the most ideal area in the world, maybe. If you use a tether. A 60,000' tether for something with ~4000lb inertial mass would weigh (assuming lightest material available) about 4000 pounds. That would probably leave a mark if it came lose and hit you. Sorry, I misread the question. If you are ever in down in Tucson ask to take a tour of worldview enterprises. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #30 April 15, 2017 bjgraybeal ****** Rough estimate. If divided between 10 people, renting suits, and an established business, I would guess $10,000-$20,000. and a company who would do this could reuse the balloon and helium and rent the suits. This would keep their overhead low and possibly lower customer cost. A gas balloon envelope that can take "~2000lb" (OP's number) to 60k MSL would be really really big. If you find a manufacturer that will make a re-usable gas balloon to those specs I will give them a gold star. A big high five to whoever pays for it. Who I don't want to meet is the poor ground crew gathering up a few million square feet and thousands of pounds of fragile, expensive balloon. Well then I deserve a gold star. It is called a super pressure balloon. If it is to be reused then it is never fully deflated, but brought down and stored in a hanger. The balloon would not be as big as you think, somewhere in the neighborhood of 200,000 cubic feet volume. Weight would be around 100-150lb at the most. Sorry, you have met a poor ground crew member who has cleaned up the plastic. At least we are on the same team as far as GC goes. (12 years GC experience and free PG drops whenever there was room). I also did consulting work for Google's Project Loon (super-pressure helium long duration communication flights) I find it exceptionally hard to believe that a 200,000cf envelope that can do anything but a one time, one-way trip would weigh 150lb. A super pressure balloon is normally not intended for multiple inflations or flights. Re-usable gas balloons, even those that are meant to stay more or less inflated and hangared are at best comparable in mass per envelope area to hot air balloons. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bjgraybeal 0 #31 April 15, 2017 Calvin19 ********* Rough estimate. If divided between 10 people, renting suits, and an established business, I would guess $10,000-$20,000. and a company who would do this could reuse the balloon and helium and rent the suits. This would keep their overhead low and possibly lower customer cost. A gas balloon envelope that can take "~2000lb" (OP's number) to 60k MSL would be really really big. If you find a manufacturer that will make a re-usable gas balloon to those specs I will give them a gold star. A big high five to whoever pays for it. Who I don't want to meet is the poor ground crew gathering up a few million square feet and thousands of pounds of fragile, expensive balloon. Well then I deserve a gold star. It is called a super pressure balloon. If it is to be reused then it is never fully deflated, but brought down and stored in a hanger. The balloon would not be as big as you think, somewhere in the neighborhood of 200,000 cubic feet volume. Weight would be around 100-150lb at the most. Sorry, you have met a poor ground crew member who has cleaned up the plastic. At least we are on the same team as far as GC goes. (12 years GC experience and free PG drops whenever there was room). I also did consulting work for Google's Project Loon (super-pressure helium long duration communication flights) I find it exceptionally hard to believe that a 200,000cf envelope that can do anything but a one time, one-way trip would weigh 150lb. A super pressure balloon is normally not intended for multiple inflations or flights. Re-usable gas balloons, even those that are meant to stay more or less inflated and hangared are at best comparable in mass per envelope area to hot air balloons. It is not easy reusing a balloon but it is possible. I have personal experience unpacking, inflating, and launching a balloon with a 2,200lb payload and designed to float at 110,000ft. the weight of that balloon was only 60lb. granted a reusable super pressure balloon would need more robust film, but it wouldn't add a ton of weight. It could be more feasible to have a one time use balloon that weighs only 30-40lb. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,446 #32 April 15, 2017 QuoteHovering can happen in a very small window of a few square miles and a few thousand feet of elevation change. Can it? Under what conditions? How often do these conditions occur? QuoteRough estimate. If divided between 10 people, renting suits, and an established business, I would guess $10,000-$20,000. And how many current, experienced skydivers would be willing to pay that much for one really high jump? Have you factored in the costs for rigs to fit the pressure suits? You said that people are willing to pay $4k for a tandem - you realise those tandem customers wont be able to do this, right? Quoteand a company who would do this could reuse the balloon and helium How do they do that?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bjgraybeal 0 #33 April 15, 2017 jakeeQuoteHovering can happen in a very small window of a few square miles and a few thousand feet of elevation change. Can it? Under what conditions? How often do these conditions occur? Short answer: Yes, normal, and always. Long answer:wind direction varies with altitude, so dropping or raising the balloon will bring it into those currents. QuoteRough estimate. If divided between 10 people, renting suits, and an established business, I would guess $10,000-$20,000. And how many current, experienced skydivers would be willing to pay that much for one really high jump? Have you factored in the costs for rigs to fit the pressure suits? You said that people are willing to pay $4k for a tandem - you realise those tandem customers wont be able to do this, right? Don't know, hence the thread. I am not talking about 60,000ft tandems, but saying that people feel that the pricing is reasonable. the pressure suits are soft torso and would be no different than a heavy coat. Quoteand a company who would do this could reuse the balloon and helium How do they do that? A super pressure balloon can adjust it's altitude. some helium may have to be vented in order to land but the bulk reserved. The research balloon market does this quite often with research payloads, and these balloons are aloft for up to months at a time. Nothing I am presenting is beyond the scope of reality. The question is the target audience size. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,446 #34 April 15, 2017 QuoteShort answer: Yes, normal, and always. Long answer:wind direction varies with altitude, so dropping or raising the balloon will bring it into those currents. You're saying that it is always the case that there are 180 opposed wind directions within a height span that a balloon can feasibly switch between at will in order to maintain a fixed position over the ground? Do you have a source or link to people that are operating balloons which can do this on any given flight? QuoteDon't know, hence the thread. I am not talking about 60,000ft tandems, but saying that people feel that the pricing is reasonable. Who feels that $20k per jump is reasonable enough to create sustained demand for an ongoing business? How do they justify this feeling?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bjgraybeal 0 #35 April 15, 2017 ***QuoteShort answer: Yes, normal, and always. Long answer:wind direction varies with altitude, so dropping or raising the balloon will bring it into those currents. You're saying that it is always the case that there are 180 opposed wind directions within a height span that a balloon can feasibly switch between at will in order to maintain a fixed position over the ground? Do you have a source or link to people that are operating balloons which can do this on any given flight? I never said 180 degree but a series of turns at various altitudes will track you back. Raven industry, worldview enterprises, and near space corporation can do this. Worldview has animation of how it works on their site. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #36 April 15, 2017 bjgraybeal ************ Rough estimate. If divided between 10 people, renting suits, and an established business, I would guess $10,000-$20,000. and a company who would do this could reuse the balloon and helium and rent the suits. This would keep their overhead low and possibly lower customer cost. A gas balloon envelope that can take "~2000lb" (OP's number) to 60k MSL would be really really big. If you find a manufacturer that will make a re-usable gas balloon to those specs I will give them a gold star. A big high five to whoever pays for it. Who I don't want to meet is the poor ground crew gathering up a few million square feet and thousands of pounds of fragile, expensive balloon. Well then I deserve a gold star. It is called a super pressure balloon. If it is to be reused then it is never fully deflated, but brought down and stored in a hanger. The balloon would not be as big as you think, somewhere in the neighborhood of 200,000 cubic feet volume. Weight would be around 100-150lb at the most. Sorry, you have met a poor ground crew member who has cleaned up the plastic. At least we are on the same team as far as GC goes. (12 years GC experience and free PG drops whenever there was room). I also did consulting work for Google's Project Loon (super-pressure helium long duration communication flights) I find it exceptionally hard to believe that a 200,000cf envelope that can do anything but a one time, one-way trip would weigh 150lb. A super pressure balloon is normally not intended for multiple inflations or flights. Re-usable gas balloons, even those that are meant to stay more or less inflated and hangared are at best comparable in mass per envelope area to hot air balloons. It is not easy reusing a balloon but it is possible. I have personal experience unpacking, inflating, and launching a balloon with a 2,200lb payload and designed to float at 110,000ft. the weight of that balloon was only 60lb. granted a reusable super pressure balloon would need more robust film, but it wouldn't add a ton of weight. It could be more feasible to have a one time use balloon that weighs only 30-40lb. Reusing a condom is also doable. But let's not grab the lube just yet. The point of this theoretical venture is to get RAF felix wannabes to 40k or 60k MSL, somewhat reliably. ignoring this would be classified by any insurance company, aviation authority, or investor to be a commercial flight. Ignoring that even hot air balloons are comically un-dependable as reliable aircraft compared to fixed wing. I doubt a 'used' zero-pressure or super-pressure balloon made out of film that makes painter's plastic drop-cloth seem like bullet-proof kevlar would make anyone very confident. IMO you would be better off modifying an existing aircraft already capable of 60kMSL (edit:40-50k, 60k gets a lot more expensive) flight for jumping. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bjgraybeal 0 #37 April 16, 2017 Calvin19 *************** Rough estimate. If divided between 10 people, renting suits, and an established business, I would guess $10,000-$20,000. and a company who would do this could reuse the balloon and helium and rent the suits. This would keep their overhead low and possibly lower customer cost. A gas balloon envelope that can take "~2000lb" (OP's number) to 60k MSL would be really really big. If you find a manufacturer that will make a re-usable gas balloon to those specs I will give them a gold star. A big high five to whoever pays for it. Who I don't want to meet is the poor ground crew gathering up a few million square feet and thousands of pounds of fragile, expensive balloon. Well then I deserve a gold star. It is called a super pressure balloon. If it is to be reused then it is never fully deflated, but brought down and stored in a hanger. The balloon would not be as big as you think, somewhere in the neighborhood of 200,000 cubic feet volume. Weight would be around 100-150lb at the most. Sorry, you have met a poor ground crew member who has cleaned up the plastic. At least we are on the same team as far as GC goes. (12 years GC experience and free PG drops whenever there was room). I also did consulting work for Google's Project Loon (super-pressure helium long duration communication flights) I find it exceptionally hard to believe that a 200,000cf envelope that can do anything but a one time, one-way trip would weigh 150lb. A super pressure balloon is normally not intended for multiple inflations or flights. Re-usable gas balloons, even those that are meant to stay more or less inflated and hangared are at best comparable in mass per envelope area to hot air balloons. It is not easy reusing a balloon but it is possible. I have personal experience unpacking, inflating, and launching a balloon with a 2,200lb payload and designed to float at 110,000ft. the weight of that balloon was only 60lb. granted a reusable super pressure balloon would need more robust film, but it wouldn't add a ton of weight. It could be more feasible to have a one time use balloon that weighs only 30-40lb. Reusing a condom is also doable. But let's not grab the lube just yet. The point of this theoretical venture is to get RAF felix wannabes to 40k or 60k MSL, somewhat reliably. ignoring this would be classified by any insurance company, aviation authority, or investor to be a commercial flight. Ignoring that even hot air balloons are comically un-dependable as reliable aircraft compared to fixed wing. I doubt a 'used' zero-pressure or super-pressure balloon made out of film that makes painter's plastic drop-cloth seem like bullet-proof kevlar would make anyone very confident. IMO you would be better off modifying an existing aircraft already capable of 60kMSL (edit:40-50k, 60k gets a lot more expensive) flight for jumping. First, the reuse is a means to lower the price, but balloons are cheap. Plastic is a few hundred dollars and only a few hundred in labor, so one time use can also be done. As far as commercial flight use, you might want to let worldview enterprises know that this is not possible. They plan on taking tourist up to 100,000ft and descending under a massive square parachute in about a year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
platypii 20 #38 April 16, 2017 Have you considered the cost savings with using Hydrogen instead of Helium? Cheaper gas, more lift, smaller balloon needed. No smoking allowed though.BASEline - Wingsuit Flight Computer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #39 April 16, 2017 bjgraybeal First, the reuse is a means to lower the price, but balloons are cheap. Plastic is a few hundred dollars and only a few hundred in labor, so one time use can also be done. I'm curious about that. Cheap is very relative. I looked into building several 130'k, 300kg payload zero pressure envelopes. large hangar/factory/warehouse, materials, parts and custom tools to just get started would be well past five digits. Assuming learning curve, R/D, testing, permits, airspace, certifications, is not included. After quotes we got from manufacturers in 2011, building our own envelopes was more attractive. Moot now of course. space jumping is so 2012. Quote As far as commercial flight use, you might want to let worldview enterprises know that this is not possible. They plan on taking tourist up to 100,000ft and descending under a massive square parachute in about a year. I didn't say not possible, just really expensive. And their initial business plan is WAY more practical than 20kUSD a head for jumping. Seriously, just use a plane. Or even a hot air balloon with fewer jumpers and 40,000' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpsalot-2 3 #40 April 16, 2017 With a mean temperature of -70 deg. F. from 37,000' to exit altitude, what would be your plan to survive (comfortably) considering the time needed to continue to exit altitude ?Life is short ... jump often. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #41 April 16, 2017 I actually was setting down writing a very coherent response to his first post. It was all about pressure suits vs pressure breathing and an old U2 pilot that I used to know. I got interrupted yesterday and didn't get to finish it. By the time I checked on it again last night it was in full swing and I just went and got some popcorn. Things I will say for his plan. 60,000 ft is at least way more doable then the exponentially larger problem of trying to set a new record at 130,000+ A 60,000 foot balloon is at least doable for decent size loads. There are certainly places where they launch balloons like that commercially for weather and other things. In fact they do it at all latitudes. On one of my trips to Canada I was talking to a guy about a launch site... I don't recall if it was actually on Baffin or a near by island. Site wasn't even a town. It was just an out post where they went to launch balloons using hydrogen. Way too dangerous to be near any town. So commercial stuff is out there but it's generally in the middle of no where with flight paths away from every thing, like over oceans. Obviously you can get permits to launch from any where you like. Look at the balloon racers for the around the world. But I can't even conceive of trying to reuse or recover an envelope from some thing like that. Never even heard of it being done. Every thing I've ever seen they just cut away the payload and recovered it. About air craft. I think it would be very... interesting to try to jump out of an air craft at that altitude. Look up "Coffin Corner" in the history of high flying aircraft. Basically you can get into this situation where as you fly higher your stall speed of course goes up and you get into a corner of the graph where lines for critical mach number and stall speed start to converge. It's a scary place to fly but a lot of high flying aircraft have wound up there, the U2 as a prime example. What's relevant here is that the air plane just can't slow down. No Cut! So we're talking about a jumping out of a jet aircraft with no cut. Density is low but the indicated air speed is still pretty high. I think we're talking ejection seat, and ejection seats are no fun. Normally it's a question of how badly you're injured. Any body know what the highest jump made from an air plane is? What kind of plane could you jump from at 60,000+ feet where you wouldn't lose the aircraft? I think there are ways you could build one. There was once a design, old supersonic fighter bomber idea, where they were looking at deploying ordinance out the tail of the aircraft between the engines rather then through a bomb bay or under wing. They wanted to drop a bomb or fire a missile supper sonic and were worried about the bomb taking out the plane. I just can't think of a lot of planes that could fly at that altitude with a door open. If you want to do this I'll tell you how to do it. It won't be cheep but the next record will be set with a rocket. There are people talking about this right now. If you want to set a new record, I'm talking 200,000 feet, give us a call: Exos Aerospace http://exosaero.com/ But don't even waist our time till you have secured... lets say $3,000,000, that's just a guess off the top of my head, to build you a custom air frame. It's not exactly what you're looking for, some thing cheep enough to be a new business that the ordinary skydiver is going to want to jump. But once built, normal operating cost are about $250,000 per flight. Let's talk wet lease. LeeLee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bjgraybeal 0 #42 April 16, 2017 RiggerLeeI actually was setting down writing a very coherent response to his first post. It was all about pressure suits vs pressure breathing and an old U2 pilot that I used to know. I got interrupted yesterday and didn't get to finish it. By the time I checked on it again last night it was in full swing and I just went and got some popcorn. Things I will say for his plan. 60,000 ft is at least way more doable then the exponentially larger problem of trying to set a new record at 130,000+ A 60,000 foot balloon is at least doable for decent size loads. There are certainly places where they launch balloons like that commercially for weather and other things. In fact they do it at all latitudes. On one of my trips to Canada I was talking to a guy about a launch site... I don't recall if it was actually on Baffin or a near by island. Site wasn't even a town. It was just an out post where they went to launch balloons using hydrogen. Way too dangerous to be near any town. So commercial stuff is out there but it's generally in the middle of no where with flight paths away from every thing, like over oceans. Obviously you can get permits to launch from any where you like. Look at the balloon racers for the around the world. But I can't even conceive of trying to reuse or recover an envelope from some thing like that. Never even heard of it being done. Every thing I've ever seen they just cut away the payload and recovered it. About air craft. I think it would be very... interesting to try to jump out of an air craft at that altitude. Look up "Coffin Corner" in the history of high flying aircraft. Basically you can get into this situation where as you fly higher your stall speed of course goes up and you get into a corner of the graph where lines for critical mach number and stall speed start to converge. It's a scary place to fly but a lot of high flying aircraft have wound up there, the U2 as a prime example. What's relevant here is that the air plane just can't slow down. No Cut! So we're talking about a jumping out of a jet aircraft with no cut. Density is low but the indicated air speed is still pretty high. I think we're talking ejection seat, and ejection seats are no fun. Normally it's a question of how badly you're injured. Any body know what the highest jump made from an air plane is? What kind of plane could you jump from at 60,000+ feet where you wouldn't lose the aircraft? I think there are ways you could build one. There was once a design, old supersonic fighter bomber idea, where they were looking at deploying ordinance out the tail of the aircraft between the engines rather then through a bomb bay or under wing. They wanted to drop a bomb or fire a missile supper sonic and were worried about the bomb taking out the plane. I just can't think of a lot of planes that could fly at that altitude with a door open. If you want to do this I'll tell you how to do it. It won't be cheep but the next record will be set with a rocket. There are people talking about this right now. If you want to set a new record, I'm talking 200,000 feet, give us a call: Exos Aerospace http://exosaero.com/ But don't even waist our time till you have secured... lets say $3,000,000, that's just a guess off the top of my head, to build you a custom air frame. It's not exactly what you're looking for, some thing cheep enough to be a new business that the ordinary skydiver is going to want to jump. But once built, normal operating cost are about $250,000 per flight. Let's talk wet lease. Lee Very nicely said. There are a few balloon companies now, launching from quite a few places around the world. Currently working for a stratospheric balloon company under one of the world's top balloon designer, I proposed this question. How would you set up a ballooning operation to lift ~10 jumpers to 50,000-60,000ft and make it equal to the price skydivers are paying for a nice complete rig? He provided his answer and I became curious if there was already talk in the community about doing this. As far as reusable balloons, they are not often used but I have used them. Some painter's plastics are actually thinner than what is used in balloons. For a true space jump (61mi+) a rocket must be used. The ride itself would not be expensive, ~$100,000. There is already a company with the resources. The test jumps, equipment, engineering, training, etc is the real cost. $3,000,000 for a package of equipment, engineering, testing, and a ride is very reasonable. Thank you all for the responses, but it looks like the limitation is more the thought that it is impossible. The technology and companies are out there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #43 April 16, 2017 bjgraybeal***I actually was setting down writing a very coherent response to his first post. It was all about pressure suits vs pressure breathing and an old U2 pilot that I used to know. I got interrupted yesterday and didn't get to finish it. By the time I checked on it again last night it was in full swing and I just went and got some popcorn. Things I will say for his plan. 60,000 ft is at least way more doable then the exponentially larger problem of trying to set a new record at 130,000+ A 60,000 foot balloon is at least doable for decent size loads. There are certainly places where they launch balloons like that commercially for weather and other things. In fact they do it at all latitudes. On one of my trips to Canada I was talking to a guy about a launch site... I don't recall if it was actually on Baffin or a near by island. Site wasn't even a town. It was just an out post where they went to launch balloons using hydrogen. Way too dangerous to be near any town. So commercial stuff is out there but it's generally in the middle of no where with flight paths away from every thing, like over oceans. Obviously you can get permits to launch from any where you like. Look at the balloon racers for the around the world. But I can't even conceive of trying to reuse or recover an envelope from some thing like that. Never even heard of it being done. Every thing I've ever seen they just cut away the payload and recovered it. About air craft. I think it would be very... interesting to try to jump out of an air craft at that altitude. Look up "Coffin Corner" in the history of high flying aircraft. Basically you can get into this situation where as you fly higher your stall speed of course goes up and you get into a corner of the graph where lines for critical mach number and stall speed start to converge. It's a scary place to fly but a lot of high flying aircraft have wound up there, the U2 as a prime example. What's relevant here is that the air plane just can't slow down. No Cut! So we're talking about a jumping out of a jet aircraft with no cut. Density is low but the indicated air speed is still pretty high. I think we're talking ejection seat, and ejection seats are no fun. Normally it's a question of how badly you're injured. Any body know what the highest jump made from an air plane is? What kind of plane could you jump from at 60,000+ feet where you wouldn't lose the aircraft? I think there are ways you could build one. There was once a design, old supersonic fighter bomber idea, where they were looking at deploying ordinance out the tail of the aircraft between the engines rather then through a bomb bay or under wing. They wanted to drop a bomb or fire a missile supper sonic and were worried about the bomb taking out the plane. I just can't think of a lot of planes that could fly at that altitude with a door open. If you want to do this I'll tell you how to do it. It won't be cheep but the next record will be set with a rocket. There are people talking about this right now. If you want to set a new record, I'm talking 200,000 feet, give us a call: Exos Aerospace http://exosaero.com/ But don't even waist our time till you have secured... lets say $3,000,000, that's just a guess off the top of my head, to build you a custom air frame. It's not exactly what you're looking for, some thing cheep enough to be a new business that the ordinary skydiver is going to want to jump. But once built, normal operating cost are about $250,000 per flight. Let's talk wet lease. Lee Very nicely said. There are a few balloon companies now, launching from quite a few places around the world. Currently working for a stratospheric balloon company under one of the world's top balloon designer, I proposed this question. How would you set up a ballooning operation to lift ~10 jumpers to 50,000-60,000ft and make it equal to the price skydivers are paying for a nice complete rig? He provided his answer and I became curious if there was already talk in the community about doing this. As far as reusable balloons, they are not often used but I have used them. Some painter's plastics are actually thinner than what is used in balloons. For a true space jump (61mi+) a rocket must be used. The ride itself would not be expensive, ~$100,000. There is already a company with the resources. The test jumps, equipment, engineering, training, etc is the real cost. $3,000,000 for a package of equipment, engineering, testing, and a ride is very reasonable. I agree with everything here.^ (quote and response). My main points were the ideas of re-using envelopes, 'hovering' a buoyant unpowered aircraft, and other logistics of using a balloon. An airplane with a large window between mach and stall would be doable at 40000', and far more practical. coffin corner was the reason for the edit in my post a few responses back from 60k to 40-50k. And of course never said impossible, only very expensive and difficult. If you get the company together I would gladly help crew. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rapanui 0 #44 April 17, 2017 bjgraybeal you are a master troll, look how many people took the bait. What did you win on the bet, a case of beer? QuoteThe ride itself would not be expensive, ~$100,000. Are you an IT rich guy? You should talk to Alan Eustace if you are. He like to burn his money on this kind of stuff Also, I'm relatively new to jumping and need to start buying gear. If you have an extra $5000 lying around, I'll send you my paypal and you can gift me some moolah... I'd appreciate it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,920 #45 April 19, 2017 >I never said 180 degree but a series of turns at various altitudes will track you back. Free balloons neither "turn" nor "track." The only way for a balloon to "hover" is for it to ascend and descend through perfectly still air, or for it to ascend and descend through a series of wind layers that shift more than 180 degrees. Neither is likely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #46 April 19, 2017 billvon>I never said 180 degree but a series of turns at various altitudes will track you back. Free balloons neither "turn" nor "track." Aw, come on, if you're going to criticize him, at least do it on the basis of the actual content of his argument. Let's not quibble too much about minor issues of language. "The balloon turned back" can easily be a simplistic abbreviation for "a map trace of the balloon's track over the ground showed it eventually turned back to the opposite direction". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slimrn 6 #47 April 19, 2017 "It could have been carried by an African swallow!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bjgraybeal 0 #48 April 20, 2017 http://www.worldview.space/fly-your-payload/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #49 April 20, 2017 bjgraybealhttp://www.worldview.space/fly-your-payload/ With the way you were talking about experience crewing for gas balloons I kinda thought you worked for WorldView. Have you asked them for quotes on envelopes? (Cause I have, six years ago). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bjgraybeal 0 #50 April 20, 2017 Calvin19***http://www.worldview.space/fly-your-payload/ With the way you were talking about experience crewing for gas balloons I kinda thought you worked for WorldView. Have you asked them for quotes on envelopes? (Cause I have, six years ago). Funny cause worldview has only been a company since Oct 2013. But no I don't work for them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites