Commercial "space" jumping

[bjgraybeal 0]

I know there is a community of HALO jumpers, but I am wondering if there has ever been talk of routine jumps from ~60,000ft? A balloon and O2 would have to be used but I feel it is something that could become commonplace in our sport. This might also lead to further development of personnel recovery from suborbital altitudes. Just looking for discussion on the topic.

[husslr187 24]

I recalled seeing a chart in the SIM with different altitudes and requirements so I went back and looked it up. 60'000ft would require a pressure suit, full time O2, and a rig that can work with all that. Them there's the training for it and the FAA rules/notifications whatever they may be since you'll likely be jumping through Class A airspace (haven't really looked into the FAA stuff yet ) Then after you get all the Equipment, training and FAA requirements you have to be on oxygen long before you even board the plane. Then of course there are much more risks from jumping from that altitude.

I'm not saying it can't be done but more people would be happier to only go to 24'000ft so they only have to be on O2 at 8'000 and up on the plane, save money from not buying extra gear.

EDIT: page 138 in the sim if you're interested in looking at the chart.

[bjgraybeal 0]

It might be a little more pricey than a 24,000' drop but at 60,000' and below a pressure suit may not be required because its below the Armstrong limit. I am just interested in pushing the boundaries of the sport and wondering if after the semi recent jumps by Felix and Alan if more people were talking about bringing extreme altitude jumps into the "norm".

Thank you for the reference. I'll have to look into what rules and specific training would apply to this.

[husslr187 24]

Looking at the chart, anything 40'000ft and above requires a pressure suit. 60'000ft requires full pressurization. The whole section starts on page 134.

[jakee 1,254]

bjgraybeal

I know there is a community of HALO jumpers, but I am wondering if there has ever been talk of routine jumps from ~60,000ft? A balloon and O2 would have to be used but I feel it is something that could become commonplace in our sport. This might also lead to further development of personnel recovery from suborbital altitudes. Just looking for discussion on the topic.

Common place? Do you know how much those balloons cost? Do you know how far they travel while getting to 60k ft?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[bjgraybeal 0]

Yes, a balloon that would lift 2000lb (assuming a group jump of ~10 jumpers) would cost around $6,000. The helium would add an additional $7,000-$15,000. Launch team would be around $3,000-$5,000. Split between everybody would be cheap.
As far as drift, it all depends on wind direction and speed. But, a balloon with ballast control could be flown to hover over an area. Even a balloon with no control can drift anywhere from 0-20miles. So the if the drop zone is a known location, a balloon can be launched and placed right over it when it hits its target altitude.

[Phil1111 908]

bjgraybeal

Yes, a balloon that would lift 2000lb (assuming a group jump of ~10 jumpers) would cost around $6,000. The helium would add an additional $7,000-$15,000. Launch team would be around $3,000-$5,000. Split between everybody would be cheap.
As far as drift, it all depends on wind direction and speed. But, a balloon with ballast control could be flown to hover over an area. Even a balloon with no control can drift anywhere from 0-20miles. So the if the drop zone is a known location, a balloon can be launched and placed right over it when it hits its target altitude.

I'm a gonna say BS on all that.

There is about 60# of lift per 1000 cu ft of commercial he at the surface. Which can grow to 80 times that volume at altitude. So one jumper with equipment @ 230 lbs and balloon weight, basket weight, etc. you likely have 300-400 lbs. = 5800 cu ft at the surface and 460,000 cu ft at altitude depending on height. Per jumper.

[bjgraybeal 0]

Final balloon size at a float altitude of ~60,000ft lifting 3000lb including balloon and basket weight would be less than 200,000 cubic feet. A balloon like that might only weight 100-150lb. each person would require approx. 4,000 cubic feet of helium for the ride. Depending on current market price and if the helium is procured through government agencies it could be as little as $500/person for the helium. Both of our numbers are in the same ballpark, so what exactly is BS?

[Phil1111 908]

Here is a start for you.

As always, I'll be ready to be jumper number 1001. Call me then.

http://spacegrant.colorado.edu/COSGC_Projects/space/Documents/Verhage/NearSpace0%5B1%5D.pdf

[bjgraybeal 0]

Good article, I've read it before. I've already started my journey to make this a reality and was wondering if there were more people looking into this. I feel it is a possibility because universal pressure suits are available through david clark company (the ones used for high altitude flights and space shuttle egress), balloon flights can be done with a high degree of safety, and divided cost for a group would be reasonable. I still don't know what you think is BS. Seeing the peaceful nature and power of balloon launches, I think it would be an unforgettable experience.

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

As far as drift, it all depends on wind direction and speed. But, a balloon with ballast control could be flown to hover over an area.

Say what now?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

I feel it is a possibility because universal pressure suits are available through david clark company (the ones used for high altitude flights and space shuttle egress), balloon flights can be done with a high degree of safety, and divided cost for a group would be reasonable.

So you're figurng $500 a person for just the helium, then you've got the balloon costs, crew costs, launch site costs, pressure suit costs, custom parachute and rigging costs, insurance costs, other business overheads, profit margin... exactly what final 'reasonable' per person jump ticket cost are you envisioning here that will lead to this becoming a commonplace activity?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Phil1111 908]

http://www.space.com/5401-french-space-diver-balloon-takes.html

http://www.pdsol.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Why_Try_to_Jump_from_Space.pdf

[bjgraybeal 0]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHxkQ8PIanE

1.3million cubic foot balloon designed to 40,000' with 23,000lb lift. I could write the cost of balloon and helium, but I have signed a NDA.

[bjgraybeal 0]

Yes, balloons can hover over the earth by using the different directions of wind and different altitudes.

[bjgraybeal 0]

jakee

Quote

I feel it is a possibility because universal pressure suits are available through david clark company (the ones used for high altitude flights and space shuttle egress), balloon flights can be done with a high degree of safety, and divided cost for a group would be reasonable.

So you're figurng $500 a person for just the helium, then you've got the balloon costs, crew costs, launch site costs, pressure suit costs, custom parachute and rigging costs, insurance costs, other business overheads, profit margin... exactly what final 'reasonable' per person jump ticket cost are you envisioning here that will lead to this becoming a commonplace activity?

Reasonable is very subjective, but people are paying almost $4,000 for a tandem from 30,000ft. And if this became a thing, I would imagine that a company would rent the suits. I don't know the final figures but those who would "need" to do it would find most prices reasonable.

[chutem 0]

bjgraybeal

Yes, balloons can hover over the earth by using the different directions of wind and different altitudes.

Can this be done at the same time as climbing to 40k' in a "reasonable" time?

[jakee 1,254]

bjgraybeal

Yes, balloons can hover over the earth by using the different directions of wind and different altitudes.

LOL. How big of an area counts as 'hovering', how often do conditions in any given place make this feasible, and what range of altitudes would a balloon need to run through to make this happen?

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I don't know the final figures but those who would "need" to do it would find most prices reasonable.

Ballpark figure? Rough estimate? How many zeroes before the decimal point?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[bjgraybeal 0]

chutem

***Yes, balloons can hover over the earth by using the different directions of wind and different altitudes.

Can this be done at the same time as climbing to 40k' in a "reasonable" time?

Very few planes can you take to 40,000ft and jump. But the answer to your question is anywhere from 1,000ft/min and up. It really depends on how much helium is wasted in the free lift. If 20,000lb extra were thrown into a balloon lifting only 2,000lb, it would take off like a rocket ship.

[bjgraybeal 0]

jakee

***Yes, balloons can hover over the earth by using the different directions of wind and different altitudes.

LOL. How big of an area counts as 'hovering', how often do conditions in any given place make this feasible, and what range of altitudes would a balloon need to run through to make this happen?

Quote

I don't know the final figures but those who would "need" to do it would find most prices reasonable.

Ballpark figure? Rough estimate? How many zeroes before the decimal point?

Hovering can happen in a very small window of a few square miles and a few thousand feet of elevation change. But would not be necessary in this application as people would jump as the altitude is reached.

Rough estimate. If divided between 10 people, renting suits, and an established business, I would guess $10,000-$20,000. and a company who would do this could reuse the balloon and helium and rent the suits. This would keep their overhead low and possibly lower customer cost.

[Calvin19 0]

bjgraybeal

Rough estimate. If divided between 10 people, renting suits, and an established business, I would guess $10,000-$20,000. and a company who would do this could reuse the balloon and helium and rent the suits. This would keep their overhead low and possibly lower customer cost.

A gas balloon envelope that can take "~2000lb" (OP's number) to 60k MSL would be really really big. If you find a manufacturer that will make a re-usable gas balloon to those specs I will give them a gold star. A big high five to whoever pays for it. Who I don't want to meet is the poor ground crew gathering up a few million square feet and thousands of pounds of fragile, expensive balloon.

[chutem 0]

bjgraybeal

******Yes, balloons can hover over the earth by using the different directions of wind and different altitudes.

Can this be done at the same time as climbing to 40k' in a "reasonable" time?

Very few planes can you take to 40,000ft and jump. But the answer to your question is anywhere from 1,000ft/min and up. It really depends on how much helium is wasted in the free lift. If 20,000lb extra were thrown into a balloon lifting only 2,000lb, it would take off like a rocket ship.

Not asking how fast a balloon can climb, asking if you can "hover" a balloon over a certain area while at the same time climbing to 40k' in a reasonable amount of time?

[Calvin19 0]

chutem

*********Yes, balloons can hover over the earth by using the different directions of wind and different altitudes.

Can this be done at the same time as climbing to 40k' in a "reasonable" time?

Very few planes can you take to 40,000ft and jump. But the answer to your question is anywhere from 1,000ft/min and up. It really depends on how much helium is wasted in the free lift. If 20,000lb extra were thrown into a balloon lifting only 2,000lb, it would take off like a rocket ship.

Not asking how fast a balloon can climb, asking if you can "hover" a balloon over a certain area while at the same time climbing to 40k' in a reasonable amount of time?

Short answer. No.
Long answer. Nooooooooooooooo.

[Calvin19 0]

chutem

*********Yes, balloons can hover over the earth by using the different directions of wind and different altitudes.

Can this be done at the same time as climbing to 40k' in a "reasonable" time?

Very few planes can you take to 40,000ft and jump. But the answer to your question is anywhere from 1,000ft/min and up. It really depends on how much helium is wasted in the free lift. If 20,000lb extra were thrown into a balloon lifting only 2,000lb, it would take off like a rocket ship.

Not asking how fast a balloon can climb, asking if you can "hover" a balloon over a certain area while at the same time climbing to 40k' in a reasonable amount of time?


Longer answer:
Assuming perfect conditions in the most ideal area in the world, maybe. If you use a tether. A 60,000' tether for something with ~4000lb inertial mass would weigh (assuming lightest material available) about 4000 pounds.

[Phil1111 908]

jakee

***Yes, balloons can hover over the earth by using the different directions of wind and different altitudes.

LOL. How big of an area counts as 'hovering', how often do conditions in any given place make this feasible, and what range of altitudes would a balloon need to run through to make this happen?

Quote

I don't know the final figures but those who would "need" to do it would find most prices reasonable.

Ballpark figure? Rough estimate? How many zeroes before the decimal point?

I must have missed that. I have about 10 launches, 4-5 hours PIC in hot air balloons and another 5-6 jumps from them. Somehow I missed the lessons on hovering. Might have been drunk that day.