Zoomer Urges POS Biden to Forgive Student Debt via Exec Order...

[JoeWeber 2,294]

Just now, gowlerk said:

That explains a lot. You are relying on a personally known anecdote to inform yourself about a very complex problem facing millions of people. You are not wrong, but it only goes so far.

I gave an example of one, Ken. It's the point of it all that matters. If you want to pay my share of the cancelled debt just say so, please. Otherwise, changing the system moving forward is the best way in my view.

[gowlerk 1,903]

14 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I gave an example of one, Ken. It's the point of it all that matters. If you want to pay my share of the cancelled debt just say so, please. Otherwise, changing the system moving forward is the best way in my view.

I have not made any statement saying loans should be forgiven. Merely that the problem is not simple. The 50K handout to indebted students is also far too simple. And I am surprised to learn that Schumer is calling for it. I see that now he wants to limit it by income. But that would still let your sailing acquaintance off. (except for the 270K balance)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2020/12/07/schumer-cancel-50000-of-student-loans-but-only-if-this-is-your-income/?sh=1ac107595b3d

Edited December 8, 2020 by gowlerk

[DougH 270]

16 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

 

These ideas are somewhat contradictory. It does nothing to remove moral hazard, it merely shifts the cost. And likely not by much as the taxpayer guarantees many of those loans. Education has been moving from something for a more elite layer of society to more of a requirement in life while at the same time the schools have moved from public institutions toward private corporations. There is a thorny problem here with the high levels of debt and I have seen no good ways of solving it in any way that would be fair.

What I suggested further above is closer to fair.

No outright forgiveness, peg repayment amounts to some measure of annual income and maybe net worth, and maybe consider forgiveness of the remainder at the age SS would kick in.

There should be a general benefit to the economy by freeing up spending for some of the lower earning highly burdened college borrowers. No one gets an entirely free ride, it is less regressive, and it sticks the taxpayer with the bill further down the road. Many of the loans would just get repaid in full by the borrowers if they are higher income earners, which would result in less being paid by non college educated taxpayers.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

28 minutes ago, DougH said:

and it sticks the taxpayer with the bill further down the road.

It's a curiosity how that idea, which once I found abhorrent, now rings with a certain joie de vivre.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

6 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Government and institutional contracts often anticipate often changes. You wouldn't expect the same, nor would it be written into, your home mortgage, automobile, land sale, home equity, personal loan or, in my example, an aircraft contract.

I finance or re-finance a few billion worth of real estate on an annual basis, contracts get amended all the time.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

It does nothing to remove moral hazard, it merely shifts the cost.

Nobody talks about moral hazard when governments promise, or talk about retro-active lowering of taxes. 

[JoeWeber 2,294]

42 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

I finance or re-finance a few billion worth of real estate on an annual basis, contracts get amended all the time.

And how many billions of other peoples money do you forgive on an annual basis? Zero Billions? Thought so. Renegotiation, including bankruptcy, and forgiveness are different things.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

55 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

And how many billions of other peoples money do you forgive on an annual basis? Zero Billions? Thought so. Renegotiation, including bankruptcy, and forgiveness are different things.

You said you believed in the sanctity of contract law and people sticking to their promises. That would imply no amendments to contracts.

Now you are arguing that you don't believe in severe changes/amendments.

Where are you going to move the goal posts next?

[JoeWeber 2,294]

35 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

You said you believed in the sanctity of contract law and people sticking to their promises. That would imply no amendments to contracts.

Now you are arguing that you don't believe in severe changes/amendments.

Where are you going to move the goal posts next?

The topic was a student loan to an individual and the forgiving of such loans. Those are generally unsecured personal loans. Hence, they are difficult to discharge. You all chose to chime in with information on government contracts and other corporate type contract situations that might cause a review. That's moving the goal posts and changing the discussion. 

[SkyDekker 1,121]

21 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

The topic was a student loan to an individual and the forgiving of such loans. Those are generally unsecured personal loans. Hence, they are difficult to discharge. You all chose to chime in with information on government contracts and other corporate type contract situations that might cause a review. That's moving the goal posts and changing the discussion. 

Not true. Moving the goal posts again, as predicted.

 

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

9 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Government and institutional contracts often anticipate often changes. You wouldn't expect the same, nor would it be written into, your home mortgage, automobile, land sale, home equity, personal loan or, in my example, an aircraft contract.

Hi Joe,

That, I can agree with; specially if you are buying/selling a 2010 Ford F-150 on craig'slist.  

However you said:  'No one signs a contract in the real world counting on an amendment if things change.'

Jerry Baumchen

[JoeWeber 2,294]

4 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Joe,

That, I can agree with; specially if you are buying/selling a 2010 Ford F-150 on craig'slist.  

However you said:  'No one signs a contract in the real world counting on an amendment if things change.'

Jerry Baumchen

By "one" I meant a "someone" not Phelps Dodge or the mortgage work out department at Wells Fargo. In the real world when ones default they either turn over the collateral or suffer some contract change. In some odd situations a lender might suffer a cram down. But everyone just walking away for the greater good just does not happen. Sorry for the confusion. 

 

[SkyDekker 1,121]

13 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

But everyone just walking away for the greater good just does not happen.

Which has absolutely no baring on forgiving student-debt. Nobody is suggesting the students walk away from their debt on mass.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

13 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Which has absolutely no baring on forgiving student-debt. Nobody is suggesting the students walk away from their debt on mass.

Dude, you would argue with a wall.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

27 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Dude, you would argue with a wall.

You are equating having a portion of student debt forgiven with students en masse walking away from their debt obligations and are therefore against it. At least that appears to be the latest version of your argument. Probably will change in your next post.

If your argument is based on a flawed premise and that premise keeps changing, yes I am going to argue about that. Specially on a forum which is meant for exactly that.

When universities have money to build lazy rivers on their campus, while students from non-rich families have to get into thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of debt, there is likely a problem.

Edited December 8, 2020 by SkyDekker

[DougH 270]

1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

When universities have money to build lazy rivers on their campus, while students from non-rich families have to get into thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of debt, there is likely a problem.

I was a from a upper middle class family. I had some help from my parents early on, but I personally funded the majority of my cost of earning my degree.

I didn't qualify for grants, subsidized loans, or any type of direct government assistance. 

So what bucket do I fall in to?

I would argue that a big part of the problem was government intervention in the first place. It wasn't the small percentage of wealthy students that caused this inflation, and if they were already lucky enough to walk away fully debt free then their families were paying full price already.

You are missing the boat when you compare between college students. This isn't lower income/wealth student versus higher parental income/wealth student. It is college educated versus non-college educated, who will disproportionately be stuck footing the budgetary expenditure of outright student loan forgiveness. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by DougH

[gowlerk 1,903]

The Schumer proposal is basically to forgive 50K of a students debt. Somehow linked to a maximum of 125K annual income. I'm sure we can all see several problems with that. The first one would be the instant result of mostly STEM graduates subsidizing all the arts grads. Add in the fact that new grads may not reach the cutoff income level in their first years, but may far exceed it later, and on and on. There is no fair fix, may as well go sailing around the world anyway!

 

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

1 minute ago, gowlerk said:

The Schumer proposal is basically to forgive 50K of a students debt. Somehow linked to a maximum of 125K annual income. I'm sure we can all see several problems with that. The first one would be the instant result of mostly STEM graduates subsidizing all the arts grads. Add in the fact that new grads may not reach the cutoff income level in their first years, but may far exceed it later, and on and on. There is no fair fix, may as well go sailing around the world anyway!

 

Hi Ken,

Re:  'There is no fair fix'

You have hit the crux of it.  As, in another thread, JFK said, 'Life is unfair.'

IMO one of the biggest problems with the whole student loan thing is the scam 'colleges' that run up their students borrowing for a worthless degree.  Trump University comes to mind.

Jerry Baumchen

[SkyDekker 1,121]

35 minutes ago, DougH said:

I was a from a upper middle class family. I had some help from my parents early on, but I personally funded the majority of my cost of earning my degree.

I didn't qualify for grants, subsidized loans, or any type of direct government assistance. 

So what bucket do I fall in to?

I would argue that a big part of the problem was government intervention in the first place. It wasn't the small percentage of wealth students that caused this inflation, and if they were already lucky enough to walk away full debt that they were paying full price already.

You are missing the boat when you compare between college students. This isn't lower income/wealth student versus higher parental income/wealth student. It is college educated versus non-college educated, who will disproportionately be stuck footing the budgetary expenditure of outright student loan forgiveness. 

I don't think anecdote trumps data. Student debt overwhelmingly effects the poorer and the minorities among society.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

3 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

yes I am going to argue about that. Specially on a forum which is meant for exactly that.

So that's why you are here? Just to argue yourself silly and get to say moving the goal posts again?

 

6 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

You said you believed in the sanctity of contract law and people sticking to their promises. That would imply no amendments to contracts.

Now you are arguing that you don't believe in severe changes/amendments.

Where are you going to move the goal posts next?

Stating that I believe in the sanctity of contract law in no way implies that I believe there should be no amendments to contracts. That's just another of your made up statements to redirect the conversation. You think you're clever at it but you are not. And no, I did not pivot to stating I "don't believe in severe changes/amendments." Again, more fabrication on your part.

See, the difference here is that I didn't make my career in the government or in a corporate job where the money I moved from column A to column B wasn't mine. In the real world, when it's your money, you understand that if you default you suffer. In the real world when you don't pay your collateral goes away and your credit rating drops.  Reality. Furthermore, I've lived on the lenders side as well doing hard money loans. So yes, I believe in the sanctity of contract law as respects student loans and other personal loans and, obviously, secured loans. I am also versed in more complex agreements that have renegotiation features. So you just go on thinking what you like.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

4 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

See, the difference here is that I didn't make my career in the government or in a corporate job where the money I moved from column A to column B wasn't mine.

Me neither.

 

4 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Stating that I believe in the sanctity of contract law in no way implies that I believe there should be no amendments to contracts.

Correct. When you followed it with: "A bargain struck should remain so" you implied there should be no amendments to contracts.

 

6 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

In the real world when you don't pay your collateral goes away and your credit rating drops.

And again. That isn't what we are talking about regarding student debt help.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

2 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Me neither.

 

Correct. When you followed it with: "A bargain struck should remain so" you implied there should be no amendments to contracts.

 

And again. That isn't what we are talking about regarding student debt help.

Not student debt help. I'm all for help if it means renegotiation but a continuation of the obligation. Outright forgiveness is what I'm opposed to. 

[billvon 2,384]

10 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Not student debt help. I'm all for help if it means renegotiation but a continuation of the obligation.

I agree.  Switching low income people to a zero interest loan would mean the money was still paid back - but would not accrue to insane levels that are effectively impossible to pay back. 

[Westerly 61]

This is the only thing I agree with the OP on. College is an investment. Some colleges are expensive and offer a poor value for your money. Others are much cheaper and offer good programs for reasonable costs. Its up to the student to figure out the best deal for his money. If someone decides to spend $100k on a B.A. in liberal arts which gets them a job flipping burgers, that's on them. The only exception should be if someone goes to college and then they are no longer qualified for their job due to no fault of their own. E.g. they are a pilot, but then find out they have a medical condition that doesent let them fly. 

Maybe if people actually had to pay cash for their college classes, they would be more smart with what degree they get and where they go to school. It's easy to spend money when it's not you money that you're spending.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Westerly

[SkyDekker 1,121]

2 minutes ago, Westerly said:

This is the only thing I agree with the OP on. College is an investment. Some colleges are expensive and offer a poor value for your money. Others are much cheaper and offer good programs for reasonable costs. Its up to the student to figure out the best deal for his money. If someone decides to spend $100k on a B.A. in liberal arts which gets them a job flipping burgers, that's on them. The only exception should be if someone goes to college and then they are no longer qualified for their job due to no fault of their own. E.g. they are a pilot, but then find out they have a medical condition that doesent let them fly. 

Maybe if people actually had to pay cash for their college classes, they would be more smart with what degree they get and where they go to school. It's easy to spend money when it's not you money that you're spending.

Education shouldn't be looked at purely as an investment from a monetary perspective, but also from a societal perspective. A rich culture should be more than a golden toilet.