Downsizing questions

[Sims895 0]

Hello wonderful humans who jump out of planes. Wanting to get everyone's opinion on a down size I'm working on. I'm currently jumping a sabre 2 210 and I'm beyond comfortable with it but my dropzone doesn't have any smaller sized canopies available for rent. I only weigh 135lbs and I'm wondering if going straight to a 170 is too big of a jump even considering my low weight.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

Sabre 2 170?

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"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[catfishhunter 1]

What does your instructor say? You say your 135 so that puts you at 160 out the door right? Is your profile correct 60 jumps? going from .8 to .94 may not seem like a lot but it really is.

Personally the 210 at that wing loading can be an issues for such a small person as the rig has to be pretty big on you and your wind limit is very small so you don't fly backwards.

Id be inclined to move you down at 60 jumps but I am not your instructor. Just not sure id move you down to a sabre2 maybe a spectre or storm 170

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[dthames 0]

You might consider a demo (from a canopy manufacturer) on a 190. Get some jumps on it and then jump the 170, if you feel like it is still a smart move.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[timrf79 0]

HI,
a few questions:
How many jumps you got?
How often do you jump a month?
What model/ age 170 are you interested in?
What is the altitude of your DZ?
What is the climate/temperature/humidity of your DZ?

Most important:
Why do you want to downsize?

[Crispy. 0]

dthames

You might consider a demo (from a canopy manufacturer) on a 190. Get some jumps on it and then jump the 170, if you feel like it is still a smart move.

+1

I don't have any affiliation with PD, but since you mentioned the Sabre2, check this out for a demo:

http://www.performancedesigns.com/sport-demos-europe/

[cruelpops 0]

Crispy.

***You might consider a demo (from a canopy manufacturer) on a 190. Get some jumps on it and then jump the 170, if you feel like it is still a smart move.

+1

I don't have any affiliation with PD, but since you mentioned the Sabre2, check this out for a demo:

http://www.performancedesigns.com/sport-demos-europe/

Fixed it for you.

http://www.performancedesigns.com/sport-demos-europe/

[cruelpops 0]

timrf79

Most important:
Why do you want to downsize?

Perhaps a W/L of .76 is a good enough reason.

[Crispy. 0]

Ha. Thanks!

[Trafficdiver 8]

I went from a SA2 210 to a SA2 170. It was a big downsize and the 170 was quite a bit faster but I was ok. Only difference is that I have an exit weight of 250.

I think you will be fine...but I'm just a voice on the Internet...

[Elisha 1]

cruelpops

******You might consider a demo (from a canopy manufacturer) on a 190. Get some jumps on it and then jump the 170, if you feel like it is still a smart move.

+1

I don't have any affiliation with PD, but since you mentioned the Sabre2, check this out for a demo:

http://www.performancedesigns.com/sport-demos-europe/

http://www.performancedesigns.com/sport-demos-europe/

Another +1. Do this first. Then try a 170 if all seems good. Eventually, with more jumps on both these (demos...for a bit), you may want to settle for a 150 (barely over 1:1). This was actually close to my weight out the door and progression in your jump numbers.

[billeisele 122]

borrow a weight belt or 2, add 30 lbs and do a sub terminal opening jump on the 210, that will give you a feel for the extra forward speed and descent rate

remove the weight and jump the 170, you'll be fine and probably safer, put a few jumps on the 170, talk to your instructors for landing tips, they can tell you if the 150 is a good idea

why safer with the 170? the wing loading on the 210 is so low a 10 mph-ish wind can be an issue, gusts can be a real problem

the 170 is still a very safe wing loading, provides a higher wing pressure and more forward speed, speed = lift at landing

just realize that the lines are shorter, the wing load is higher and it WILL turn quicker and steeper for the same amount of toggle stroke, a turn near the ground on the 210 is no big deal, it can be with the 170, enjoy

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[Baksteen 84]

I'm not a huge fan of people adding *that* much lead. When I started out in CReW I jumped with 'only' fifteen pounds to get my WL up to 1.35. I was on a Lightning 176, back then the smallest canopy I was able to jump under Dutch rules. It was tiring as f*ck to lug around all that extra weight before boarding and after landing. It also completely messed up my landings, because the canopy as well as my body responded quite differently to what I was used to. Yes, your body behaves differently too. For instance, your legs are not used to taking that extra weight after landing, which resulted in my knees buckling and subsequently my face planting.

Besides, as Dragon2 told me back then, all that weight might even be a hindrance or quite dangerous if the jump went to hell - it's also a lot of extra weight under my reserve. And my reserve was a 160.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[Di0 1]

Siiiigh.
Change in line trims between SA2 190 and SA2 170 is about 24cm, probably one of the biggest difference I can think of, in terms of line trims, between two adjacent canopy sizes, in any model of canopy. We usually have 3-4cm differences.

Long story short, a 190 and 1 70 are two very different animals, much more than two canopies of slightly different sizes usually are.

So all these discussions about adding weight, trying a 190 first, etc. etc. while not bad ideas, they'll only give you half the picture when you're stepping down.
If your instructors say it's ok to go to a 170 do it, it's certainly not unreasonable, but please, dedicate a couple of weekends to do just hop and pops, because you'll find more differences than you probably expect, even after considering the 40sqft you're losing.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[jrodrod 0]

Downsizing 1 step is around 3-5mph faster. I didn't notice a difference.

While it's not a bad idea to play it safe, I would go 170 without hesitation in your situation. I'd wait till a day with docile winds, that's about it.

The label on a canopy says something like X number of jumps with good landings on a canopy Y% bigger before downsizing. I bet if you plug in those numbers from a 170, it'll work out fine.

Regardless, 1 step is practically negligible in good weather, especially while you're still below 1.0WL.

[JohnMitchell 14]

You would still be at less than 1 to 1 wing loading on the 170. I can't think of too many people with 60 jumps that I would say "no" to on this one. As always, approach each jump with healthy respect and realize that you never quit learning how to fly and land better.

[Sims895 0]

I'm getting a safire 2 169 in october-november ish so likely i'll be closer to 80/90 jumps by then. I jump nearly every weekend but not an insane amount, probably 3-5 in a day. On the 210 I'm jumping right now I'm using a 15 ish pound weight belt because I jump a lot of two ways with a friend who weighs more than I do, but I still do fine on all of my landings. I've read that the Safire 2 as compared to the Sabre 2, flies flatter, so that seems like a safer canopy to downsize to. So all in all, given the opportunity to jump a 190 before hand I definitely will, but I'm hoping if I stop using the weight belt when I get the 169 then my instructor will approve of me using it.

[Sims895 0]

Also as some have mentioned, I definitely have issues with wind being so light under a 210. So besides wanting to be able to jump my own rig when I receive it later this year, I also am hoping that I'm able to gain more control over my movement in the air. I originally started on a 260 and I had a lot of issues with landing accuracy, which greatly diminished when I down sized to 210. All of this considering however, I still want to be safe about it and If my instructor doesn't feel comfortable with me going to a 170 then I wont. Does anyone have any online reading material that has some good info on canopy skills that I could read?

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

This is a good one:

http://www.dropzone.com/safety/Canopy_Control/Downsizing_Checklist_47.html

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Maddingo 21]

I'll just ask for an opinion here.

So, I got my first license now. I jumped a 270 during my AFF jumps with wl of about 0.90. After a few jumps (at around jump 12) I transitioned to a 250 at almost a 1.0 wl, since my instructors trusted me with my flying skills.

Since then I made all my following jumps on a 250 with a wl of 1.0. I never had any problems with landing the canopy even on big airfields (Empuriabrava) where the landing is predetermined no matter the change of wind during a jumprun. I made 15 jumps downind, no wind, crosswind and all stood them up no problem in late december of 2016.

Then the cold pause came and now I'm here, where I opened the season with 3 hop'n pops with a 270 just to get a feeling back for flying. The 4th jump was my license jump this month. Again no problems with landing the canopy. All 4 jumps were pretty close to the x on the airfield (max 15m away).

Now after my license I want to stick with a 210 for a couple of years just to really learn to fly the canopy while still having some fun. This puts me just bellow 1.2 wl with 50 jumps under my belt. And this is where the dilema arises. I really feel that the 250 canopy is something I can comfortably handle, while I crave a bit more responsive toggle and riser input. I am fully aware I am nowhere near the skills required for any fancy landings and I do not intend to do them anytime soon, but I do miss a bit more snapy turns up in the sky where it is safe to play.

So I'm really divided if I should jump a square 210 (something like a Pilot) which can be borrowed where I live or have less jumps and always wait for that 230 hwen I Will be able to get.

My instructors trust me with a 230, but if I stick at it I Will have less jump options. So my real question is how different is to handle a strong 1.1 wl in corelation to the just bellow 1.2 wl. When I transitioned to a 250 I noticed a better response but nothing dramatical, my evaluation was that I could easily handle even faster turns with a 230 canopy (back when I had 15 jumps). I don't want to be the guy who pushes for downsizing it is just a big dilemma for me where to start after the license.

[sammielu 3]

Listen to your instructors. Always. They know you, your judgement, your perception of your abilities, and see your jumps snd landings.

They say 230, so go 230.

Or listen to some random people on the internet... your choice.

You dont give a single reason for you to downsize aside from money (equipment availability comes down to money)... a landing injury costs more than getting yourself a 230sf canopy that is more readily available that what you have, plus you can't jump when you're hurt. Go 230.

[Maddingo 21]

Maybe you've missed it in that whole bunch of text. I want to downsize because I want the canopy to be more responsive and a bit faster. I've learned I'm really into canopy piloting, I absolutely love it.

Thanks for your feedback. I'm asking this because I've had different opinions regarding the line length on bigger canopies. I've read a lot of material covering downsizing for bigger and smaller people.

[DJL 232]

Maddingo

Maybe you've missed it in that whole bunch of text. I want to downsize because I want the canopy to be more responsive and a bit faster. I've learned I'm really into canopy piloting, I absolutely love it.

Thanks for your feedback. I'm asking this because I've had different opinions regarding the line length on bigger canopies. I've read a lot of material covering downsizing for bigger and smaller people.

This website is the absolute worst place to get information from as far as personal abilities and gear selection. Just jump what your instructors recommend regardless of its merits or faults. You need time in the saddle right now and it needs to be safe and slow. Line length is determined by the manufacturer and won't be much different on the same sized canopy. As the canopy gets small the length gets smaller and the result is a more responsive canopy.

If you're as into this as you say you are then go knock out a couple hundred jumps and try different canopies of the same size, you'll start to notice minor differences.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[timrf79 0]

Do you have your own rig?
If so what size canopy fits in it?

If not, just buy a rig that fits you for a 210 max and go for it.

P.S.: you have a desk job, right?

[Maddingo 21]

No I don't yet. I won't buy it untill I'm certain I will jump a 210. I expect to have a 210 for a couple of years before going to a 190... but that's far from now.

What does job have to do with skydiving?