Downsizing questions

[DJL 232]

timrf79

Do you have your own rig?
If so what size canopy fits in it?

If not, just buy a rig that fits you for a 210 max and go for it.

P.S.: you have a desk job, right?

And it took exactly one post to prove the point of what I said that "This website is the absolute worst place to get information from as far as personal abilities and gear selection. "

Tim, I see in in another thread you're asking about wingloading on Saber II's and moving to a Katana and you're being told that without more information about you it's very hard to give you advice and you should really talk with canopy coaches you've worked with in the past. This guy is a new jumper, you have no idea how his landings are and you're telling him to just "go for it".

Manddingo, the best advice I can give is to not downsize until you're fully proficient on your current wing. You're not giving any warning bells and a 210 is a pretty big canopy but don't pick a canopy based upon gear and don't feel the need to rush. See if you can knock out a bunch more jumps under the 230 and talk to your peers at your own DZ about settling on a 210.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Maddingo 21]

Thank you for all the advice.

Blue skies.

[chips26 0]

I'd jump to a 170 without hesitation, and I'm slightly heavier than you at 145 lbs.

At around 30 jumps when I had my own gear I had a Storm 170, that I downsized from a Nav 200 and Sabre 190 (transition rig) from. As others have said, dedicate a few jumps to it at first to get the feel and go from there. At my home DZ we wouldnt even consider putting one of our students that light out on anything bigger than a 200 unless we really had to, ie it was getting used.

[DJL 232]

chips26

I'd jump to a 170 without hesitation, and I'm slightly heavier than you at 145 lbs.

At around 30 jumps when I had my own gear I had a Storm 170, that I downsized from a Nav 200 and Sabre 190 (transition rig) from. As others have said, dedicate a few jumps to it at first to get the feel and go from there. At my home DZ we wouldnt even consider putting one of our students that light out on anything bigger than a 200 unless we really had to, ie it was getting used.

So he's 1:1 on a 250 meaning he weighs about 225-230 lb and you're telling him with all of your two years of experience that he'll be Ok on a 170 which puts him at 1.47:1 wingloading. I realize this is probably more about people's math being wrong on what he thinks he's loading the canopy but again people need to take canopy advice from people with them on the ground, not from dropzone.com.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[tred 0]

Quote

Hello wonderful humans who jump out of planes. Wanting to get everyone's opinion on a down size I'm working on. I'm currently jumping a sabre 2 210 and I'm beyond comfortable with it but my dropzone doesn't have any smaller sized canopies available for rent. I only weigh 135lbs and I'm wondering if going straight to a 170 is too big of a jump even considering my low weight.

he was responding to the OP?

[DJL 232]

tred

Quote

Hello wonderful humans who jump out of planes. Wanting to get everyone's opinion on a down size I'm working on. I'm currently jumping a sabre 2 210 and I'm beyond comfortable with it but my dropzone doesn't have any smaller sized canopies available for rent. I only weigh 135lbs and I'm wondering if going straight to a 170 is too big of a jump even considering my low weight.

he was responding to the OP?

That makes more sense. To answer THAT one: It's just an unfortunate aspect of being a light jumper that you have to spend more time on larger canopies and sometimes have to sit on windy days while heavier people with your same experience are in the air. The reason is that smaller canopies also have shorter lines and are more responsive regardless of the fact that you're at the same WL as larger jumpers on larger canopies. The model simply does not scale down. The shortcut is NOT to jump smaller canopy that cuts through the air better, it is to dedicate yourself to more time on the canopy, whether it's high pulls or ho and pops so that you can progress to a more advanced canopy with enough experience with the canopy regardless of jump numbers.

If you disagree I will happily send you links to the many fatalities and injuries that have occurred because some dipshit thought he/she was OK under a smaller canopy loaded lighter.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[timrf79 0]

If you have a job that requires you to be on your feet, you may want to be more conservative.
With a desk job, you can go to work with a broken ankle, etc...
Hence you might be willing to take more risk.

Most rigs allow 3 canopy sizes, so you could get a rig that holds 230-210-190 or 210-190-170.
In either case you get a well fitting rig (important) and can swap used canopies for little to no cost.

[Maddingo 21]

Well yes I do things that need to keep me walking. But hey... you know, you can fly a 290 and step on a bad spot on the field and an ankle pops. From that perspective u shouldn't do anything requiring extra stress on your legs.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

DJL

And it took exactly one post to prove the point of what I said that "This website is the absolute worst place to get information from as far as personal abilities and gear selection. "

Hmmm? Do we need to post this.....

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[craddock 0]

I weigh 170. My first canopy was a 190 f111. My second was a 107, my third was an 84. What the hell are you asking dz.com for? Justification?

What if I gave advise based on my first two years? Luckily I won't. Rent, borrow, or demo. Discuss this at home. This is a dumb discussion for the Internet. It can either hold you back or kill you if you listen. (As you can guess I never listened)

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[billvon 2,380]

>With a desk job, you can go to work with a broken ankle, etc...

Canopy advice based on which bones you want to break. Certainly a new direction here in General.

I prefer in-person instruction that assumes that no broken bones is the goal.

[Maddingo 21]

I've accumulated all the advice I need from different sources and I got my answer quite clear now.

[DJL 232]

Maddingo

I've accumulated all the advice I need from different sources and I got my answer quite clear now.

Yeah, we're just messing with the "contributors" now. Your judgement seems better than theirs.

I'm going to go for a run today but I need to do a lot of on-site work next week. Guess I should choose a path with less of a chance of breaking an ankle.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[timrf79 0]

billvon

>With a desk job, you can go to work with a broken ankle, etc...

Canopy advice based on which bones you want to break. Certainly a new direction here in General.

I prefer in-person instruction that assumes that no broken bones is the goal.

It is an indication on how much risk each one of us is willing to tolerate.
I would bet that a single parent relying on a job to make ends meet and the job requires walking has a different risk profile than a single multi millionaire that does not know what to do with the money.
(Just to give to different extremes).

[DJL 232]

timrf79

***>With a desk job, you can go to work with a broken ankle, etc...

Canopy advice based on which bones you want to break. Certainly a new direction here in General.

I prefer in-person instruction that assumes that no broken bones is the goal.

It is an indication on how much risk each one of us is willing to tolerate.
I would bet that a single parent relying on a job to make ends meet and the job requires walking has a different risk profile than a single multi millionaire that does not know what to do with the money.
(Just to give to different extremes).

What Bill is saying is that regardless of what job you have that broken bones should not be acceptable for any canopy decision you make. That would you're such a shitty pilot that you can't keep from breaking a bone but you're so confident that you don't think you'll die. This demonstrates an amazing lack of understand of the margins involves in canopy piloting.

This goes hand-in-hand with the worst canopy piloting advice I've ever heard, that "You need to put yourself into the ground at least once so you know what it feels like and know where that edge it." The person who gave that advice ended up getting carted to the hospital with internal injuries and almost died. He no longer flies high performance canopies.

The truth is that there's ALWAYS a chance of breaking a bone and you should always make the gear choices that mitigate this risk because you ALWAYS don't want a broken bone, not just if you have a desk job.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[timrf79 0]

DJL

The truth is that there's ALWAYS a chance of breaking a bone and you should always make the gear choices that mitigate this risk because you ALWAYS don't want a broken bone, not just if you have a desk job.

If canopy choice is to be made without any consideration of the individual risk profile, and if further a choice is to be made to mitigate that risk (as you stated above).
Then this would lead that we all should jump the biggest most docile canopy.
However this is not the case, we all jump a canopy that is a compromise of performance, safety and convenience.
This canopy choice, mixed with our skills, weather and other factors creates a certain risk (or risk score).
Depending on your personal situation and preference this risk score is different for any single one of us.

[gowlerk 1,902]

timrf79

***
The truth is that there's ALWAYS a chance of breaking a bone and you should always make the gear choices that mitigate this risk because you ALWAYS don't want a broken bone, not just if you have a desk job.

If canopy choice is to be made without any consideration of the individual risk profile, and if further a choice is to be made to mitigate that risk (as you stated above).
Then this would lead that we all should jump the biggest most docile canopy.
However this is not the case, we all jump a canopy that is a compromise of performance, safety and convenience.
This canopy choice, mixed with our skills, weather and other factors creates a certain risk (or risk score).
Depending on your personal situation and preference this risk score is different for any single one of us.


The real relevant factor in this decision is the intelligence of the person making it. Fools make foolish choices. It's a known fact.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[DJL 232]

Quote

However this is not the case, we all jump a canopy that is a compromise of performance, safety and convenience.
This canopy choice, mixed with our skills, weather and other factors creates a certain risk (or risk score).
Depending on your personal situation and preference this risk score is different for any single one of us.

If you're backing off from telling someone his canopy choice is dictated by whether he has a desk job then it sounds like we're good here.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[craddock 0]

DJL

******>With a desk job, you can go to work with a broken ankle, etc...

Canopy advice based on which bones you want to break. Certainly a new direction here in General.

I prefer in-person instruction that assumes that no broken bones is the goal.

It is an indication on how much risk each one of us is willing to tolerate.
I would bet that a single parent relying on a job to make ends meet and the job requires walking has a different risk profile than a single multi millionaire that does not know what to do with the money.
(Just to give to different extremes).

What Bill is saying is that regardless of what job you have that broken bones should not be acceptable for any canopy decision you make. That would you're such a shitty pilot that you can't keep from breaking a bone but you're so confident that you don't think you'll die. This demonstrates an amazing lack of understand of the margins involves in canopy piloting.

This goes hand-in-hand with the worst canopy piloting advice I've ever heard, that "You need to put yourself into the ground at least once so you know what it feels like and know where that edge it." The person who gave that advice ended up getting carted to the hospital with internal injuries and almost died. He no longer flies high performance canopies.

The truth is that there's ALWAYS a chance of breaking a bone and you should always make the gear choices that mitigate this risk because you ALWAYS don't want a broken bone, not just if you have a desk job.

Your first part of your post is missing a word but are you saying if you broke a bone you are a shitty canopy pilot? Laughable. Broken bones and injuries are not always related to skill, so much as they are to risk for some people. Is Linsey Vonn an untalented skiier?

I have had 11 orthopedic surgeries. Countless other injuries. Is that because I have no talent? Hardly. Clearly I disagree with Billvon's way of thinking. If I was going into sports with the mentality that no broken bones is the main goal I would not have enjoyed the experiences I have

During my first year skydiving I suffered an injury that required surgery to my ankle. I used the off time to save money and sold my first canopy (190) to purchase a 107. It was winter so it worked out perfectly timing wise. My desicion. My risk. Years later I swooped sdc's unlit object riddled swimming pond at night. A memorable yet risky jump. I demoed into a fairground motocross(sx style) race in full gear with an 85 sq ft canopy with my bike on the line waiting for me.

Having a high risk threshold does not mean you lack intelligence though. Common sense and judgement yes.

My buddy broke his leg swooping into the "backyard" surrounded by a fence and full of trees. It was great playground and he was hardly and idiot or bad canopy pilot. While I have never been injured myself skydiving, that same friend almost ruined that for me when I was on the bottom of a compressed stack on my 84 shooting for that same backyard to land the stack. Top guy has all control and he didnt abort in time(with heavy encouragement from me) and flew us into a hill.

I can not believe some of the last comments I have read. Do you think Linsey Vonn goes about skiing with her main goal of not breaking a bone? Winning and not dying are much higher on the list. And getting injured does not make one incompetent. I had a major dislocated shoulder when I fell backwards barefoot water skiing a few years back. Does that make me a shitty skiier? Or does that mean I have a low IQ?

Let others decide there own acceptable risk , as long as their risk doesn't put others at risk. I am clearly offended by some of these comments regarding risk. Have a good day

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[DJL 232]

Oh for fuck's sake. We're giving the guy shit for telling someone (a new jumper) to make canopy choices based upon whether he has a desk job and feels it's OK to break a bone. And congrats to you and Lindsey Vonn on your successes. The guy we're talking to isn't even making a big deal out of it, just an off-the-cuff remark.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[craddock 0]

Giving him shit for what. I am selling reclaimed barn wood. I can take a much higher risk in the winter when I am selling from my computer than if I have a valuable barn that needs to come down for supply. He doesn't deserve shit. Some people make risk choices based on their job. Others make job desisions based on there risk choices.

I left construction to become a Sales manager because of my addictions. It allowed me to work hurt. I had to do a presentation for lowes with a few hundred people on crutches after a broken tibia plateu that destroyed the ligaments. I share that with Lindsay. Only problem is I was unable to use the mic and I didnt have a headset. I woud have been screwed if I was still in construction. Office or home job I can take even higher risk. You just feel the need to give people shit because they make different choices?

And the op had already been made well aware thi is a stupid place to come for downsizing advise. I would never let some stranger on Internet advise me of risk management

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[gowlerk 1,902]

Quote

And the op had already been made well aware thi is a stupid place to come for downsizing advise. I would never let some stranger on Internet advise me of risk management

Never the less, here he is. Why give him bad advice? You've made your statement about how you deal with risk. That's not relevant to him, only to you. We generally like to advise people to proceed on the safe side. If you promote the opposite you can count on push back. Not for your sake, but for those who come here and don't know better.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[craddock 0]

gowlerk

Quote

And the op had already been made well aware thi is a stupid place to come for downsizing advise. I would never let some stranger on Internet advise me of risk management

Never the less, here he is. Why give him bad advice? You've made your statement about how you deal with risk. That's not relevant to him, only to you. We generally like to advise people to proceed on the safe side. If you promote the opposite you can count on push back. Not for your sake, but for those who come here and don't know better.

No he is not. He checked out of thread and the bickering continued. His last post said simply "I've accumulated all the advice I need from different sources and I got my answer quite clear now."

My statement when he was still in thread was to NOT come here for advise because we all have different risk acceptance and skill sets.

This thread is done as far as the op. Just people arguing for a past time now.

As a side note. Funny storry. The day we landed our crossbraced stack there was a canopy course being held on the dz by a well known individual.

Within two weeks there were three seperate injuries from participants of the class with the worse being a broken femur. These were all very conservative pilots trying things learned in class

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[Maddingo 21]

I did not want to start a war.

So for some closure from my side (I hope it cools things a bit) I will make a couple of jumps with a 230 for the starters and see how I feel under it. Then after a couple of jumps into the summer season I will transition to 210 if I and others looking at me will feel comfortable.

So there :)

[pchapman 261]

Off topic:

craddock

Within two weeks there were three seperate injuries from participants of the class with the worse being a broken femur.

Similarly, at the local DZ last year, two girls broke ankles while taking their first Flight-1 course. Worst injuries all year at the DZ.

Not exactly typical results, but ya never know what might happen...