Coreece 189 #1 Posted October 31, 2020 Tho I think some Libertarian ideas may not be practical given how the country has scaled over the past 200 years, I don't find myself so bitterly opposed to their ideas/arguments as I am with those on the fringes of the democrat and republican parties. And given that we don't have a libertarian congress, I don't think we'd have to worry too much about those reservation becoming a serious concern any time soon if JoJorg or another libertarian were elected president. So in that light, wouldn't it be better to have a libertarian president checking a rep/dem congress rather than a rep/dem president checking a rep/dem congress, or even worse, a republican president checking a republican majority or democrat president checking a democrat majority? It might even encourage congress to work together more closely in the event that they had to override a veto if they really wanted to pass legislation. I'd also add that from my perspective, they seem to be more thoughtful/reasonable when it comes to balancing social programs with fiscal responsibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,355 #2 October 31, 2020 13 minutes ago, Coreece said: Tho I think some Libertarian ideas may not be practical given how the country has scaled over the past 200 years. Libertarianism, like capitalism, communism, socialism, authoritarianism etc. is toxic in its pure form. I'd prefer to see an independent elected president who holds beliefs from libertarianism, pure democracy, capitalism, socialism etc. The US has not been successful because it has been any one thing. It is successful because it's taken the best of every system and rejected the worst. Our economy is primarily capitalist - but with socialist regulation to prevent abuse. Our military is socialist - but uses capitalist means (contractors) to deal with logistics. Our national parks are communist - they belong to everyone, but are regulated by the Parks Service. Our system of government is a republic with elected representatives, but many issues are still decided by straight democracy (ballot measures) and some are decided by committees of government workers (FAR's, PUC's.) The two party system has become entrenched in this country and no longer represents any single principle for very long. Democrats used to be the party of white nationalism; now the GOP has taken up that banner. Republicans used to represent family values and mores; now Democrats have taken over that position, primarily in response to Trump. Conservatives used to be the conservationists - now that role has fallen to the democrats. This is a poor system that means no one is well represented. Much better to have independent politicians who caucus with one side or the other depending on the topic. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 189 #3 October 31, 2020 1 hour ago, billvon said: Much better to have independent politicians who caucus with one side or the other depending on the topic. I guess I just consider Libertarians to be the most independent of the 3 parties and would be a better check on congress. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 896 #4 October 31, 2020 17 minutes ago, Coreece said: I guess I just consider Libertarians to be the most independent of the 3 parties and would be a better check on congress. But not on issues like Covid."The Cato Institute is an American libertarian think tank headquartered in Washington, D.C. It was founded as the Charles Koch Foundation" Libertarianism and the Coronavirus Pandemic How no lockdowns, no mandatory mask use and "personal choice" actually works in covid real life: Example #1 the north. Example #2 the south. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,355 #5 October 31, 2020 32 minutes ago, Coreece said: I guess I just consider Libertarians to be the most independent of the 3 parties and would be a better check on congress. Well, there are about a dozen parties in the US right now - the libertarians, the greens, the progressive party, the reform party etc. They are all quite independent of the two main parties, because they can be. They don't need to absorb any of those party's platforms because they don't have to try to win. If they did make a concerted effort to become significant political parties they'd have to absorb some of those platforms, at which point they wouldn't be so independent any more. However, a libertarian-leaning president would be a nice change from the existing "expand the power of the presidency" presidents we've had. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,889 #6 October 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Coreece said: I guess I just consider Libertarians to be the most independent of the 3 parties and would be a better check on congress. I have never been able to understand just what a libertarian is. As far as I can see they are people who don't think there should be very many rules. Except of course for the rules that protect and benefit themselves. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 189 #7 October 31, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, gowlerk said: I have never been able to understand just what a libertarian is. As far as I can see they are people who don't think there should be very many rules. Except of course for the rules that protect and benefit themselves. This may be a good place to start: https://2020election.procon.org/view.source.election.php?sourceID=015163 Or you can sort through various issues here: https://2020election.procon.org/ Here's a "cheat sheet" that quickly lists how they all stand on the issues: https://2020election.procon.org/view.source-summary-chart.php Edited October 31, 2020 by Coreece Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 896 #8 October 31, 2020 This may be an easier chew to understand republicans, Rand Paul and libertarian theory. From an August 2014 New York Times Magazine feature, with the headline, “Has the ‘Libertarian Moment’ Finally Arrived?” to today. The End of the Libertarian Dream? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,089 #9 October 31, 2020 Back when candidates used to give information to the League of Women Voters (before it was a liberal plot or whatever), I used it regularly to decide which minor-party candidates to vote for. The Libertarian who was running for Environmental Director of Houston didn’t impress me (remember Houston has significant chemical plant activity as well as an industrial port). He said his qualification was being over 21. His view of the responsibilities was that there weren’t any — if anyone feels they are damaged by a business’s environmental practices, they were free to use the court system. I decided that maybe there are jobs that a Libertarian is less suited for... I really liked spreading the vote around. I wish there were more parties, and more need to compromise and keep external, not internal, goals in mind. Wendy P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,889 #10 October 31, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Coreece said: This may be a good place to start: https://2020election.procon.org/view.source.election.php?sourceID=015163 Or you can sort through various issues here: https://2020election.procon.org/ Here's a "cheat sheet" that quickly lists how they all stand on the issues: https://2020election.procon.org/view.source-summary-chart.php As I suspected. Libertarians dream of changing the society they live in to one with fewer rules and a society where everyone rises or fall on their merits. But most of them start from an already privileged position. What they fail to take account of is how the oppressive rules that they feel oppress them are a large part of what enabled us to get to where we are. They want to have the cake and eat it too. Edited October 31, 2020 by gowlerk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,611 #11 October 31, 2020 Libertarianism would work well in Cloud Cuckoo Land. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,241 #12 October 31, 2020 3 hours ago, Coreece said: I guess I just consider Libertarians to be the most independent of the 3 parties and would be a better check on congress. That's a meaningless statement. They're the most independent because they're one of the smallest parties. If they were big enough to get a President elected then they'd no longer be the most independent because they'd be one of the biggest parties. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 896 #13 October 31, 2020 Kinda why the Koch brothers started the Cato institute. If in doubt follow the money. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistercwood 287 #14 November 1, 2020 Not to pile on too much (because I do think the OP is a perfectly valid point/question to raise), buuuuut.... my honest opinion is that most libertarians are just conservatives who want to smoke weed on occasion and don't give a shit who you marry. Every self-proclaimed libertarian I've ever met in person was a middle/upper class white dude of means. I've never met a poor one. It is extremely easy to be libertarian if you're already established in life. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 189 #15 November 1, 2020 51 minutes ago, mistercwood said: Not to pile on too much (because I do think the OP is a perfectly valid point/question to raise) buuuuut.... Pile it on all you can if you feel so inclined. I mean if you really feel so shitty about it. . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistercwood 287 #16 November 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Coreece said: Pile it on all you can if you feel so inclined. I mean if you really feel so shitty about it. . . I genuinely didn't mean it as a dig, more just wanted to add my own personal experience. I know that there are libertarians who don't fall into the caricature I mentioned, they just seem to be fairly rare within the broad swathe of people who *say* they are libertarian. There's a lot of positives to the ethos, so long as you can control for the fact that people aren't starting on the level playing field that it would require in order for it to be fair. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites