2 2
mzh1981

Vector3 and chest rings

Recommended Posts

Hello, everyone! 

I recently ordered a new Vector from UPT and the dealer told me that there is no possibility to have chest rings on a Vector since producer just doesn't make it. 

As far as I can judge UPT is the only producer who skips this option. I suspect that this topic has been discussed here many times, but was not able to find the answer. So, could someone tell me why UPT doesn't make chest rings on its gear, or just send me the link to topic where it is discussed? 

Thanks in advance! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/7/2020 at 5:48 AM, mzh1981 said:

Hello, everyone! 

I recently ordered a new Vector from UPT and the dealer told me that there is no possibility to have chest rings on a Vector since producer just doesn't make it. 

As far as I can judge UPT is the only producer who skips this option. I suspect that this topic has been discussed here many times, but was not able to find the answer. So, could someone tell me why UPT doesn't make chest rings on its gear, or just send me the link to topic where it is discussed? 

Thanks in advance! 

I have no idea but it may have to do with the harnesses still being built on the 1970's Wonderhog TSO approval.  But so is Mirage. And some others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, councilman24 said:

I have no idea but it may have to do with the harnesses still being built on the 1970's Wonderhog TSO approval.  But so is Mirage. And some others.

Hi Terry,

While I cannot speak for him, I do think that it is only because Bill Booth does not want to offer them on his rigs.*  His reasoning why is up to him.

It has nothing to do with the date of the original TSO-authorization.

It would be a Minor Change just like it has been for those other mfrs who now offer chest rings.

Jerry Baumchen

*  And, on this, I agree with him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/14/2020 at 2:41 PM, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Terry,

While I cannot speak for him, I do think that it is only because Bill Booth does not want to offer them on his rigs.*  His reasoning why is up to him.

It has nothing to do with the date of the original TSO-authorization.

It would be a Minor Change just like it has been for those other mfrs who now offer chest rings.

Jerry Baumchen

*  And, on this, I agree with him.

Alright Jerry, I'll bite... why would _you_ not want to offer them on a sport harness?

 

JW

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
26 minutes ago, fcajump said:

Alright Jerry, I'll bite... why would _you_ not want to offer them on a sport harness?

 

JW

 

Hi Jim,

A few issues back, the ParaGear catalog had a very nice photo, taken from underneath the jumper.  IMO it was very definitive.

The jumper in the photo had chest & hip rings.  It was very easy to see that a portion of the MLW, from the chest ring(s) to the hip ring(s), was back under his armpits.  And, that was where his reserve ripcord was also.  I seriously doubt that the jumper in the photo could actually see his reserve ripcord or his cutaway handle.

Think about it; at the hip ring the MLW can easily move/rotate, but just above it, the chest strap keeps that portion of the MLW much closer together than a rig without chest rings.  Then at the hip ring, once again the MLW easily moves/rotates.  This results in a MLW that looks like a Z rather than a straight line.

For all of you novice harness designers, let's hear your thoughts.

As to why, UPT does not; ask Bill Booth.

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  I also would never put hip rings on a PEP rig.

 

Edited by JerryBaumchen
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/19/2020 at 5:57 PM, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Jim,

A few issues back, the ParaGear catalog had a very nice photo, taken from underneath the jumper.  IMO it was very definitive.

The jumper in the photo had chest & hip rings.  It was very easy to see that a portion of the MLW, from the chest ring(s) to the hip ring(s), was back under his armpits.  And, that was where his reserve ripcord was also.  I seriously doubt that the jumper in the photo could actually see his reserve ripcord or his cutaway handle.

Think about it; at the hip ring the MLW can easily move/rotate, but just above it, the chest strap keeps that portion of the MLW much closer together than a rig without chest rings.  Then at the hip ring, once again the MLW easily moves/rotates.  This results in a MLW that looks like a Z rather than a straight line.

For all of you novice harness designers, let's hear your thoughts.

As to why, UPT does not; ask Bill Booth.

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  I also would never put hip rings on a PEP rig.

 

I'll have to take a look for the pic.  Obviously the handle location you indicate in the pic is unacceptable, you'll get no argument from me on that no matter how it happens.

I've got both chest and hip rings and can't envision how you get the MLW back there ('course I'm a bit sleep deprived, so I'm not envisioning much but a bed right now...).  I will point out that I buck the trend on two items when it comes to harness adjustment that may make all the difference:

   1. I prefer my chest strap (over?) snug.  (and no, I don't loosen it until I'm on the ground or approaching a water landing... to me the marginal canopy performance is not worth security in the harness if sh!t goes bad low down... one of these days we're going to have an incident of someone coming out of their harness that was loosened under canopy and then they had a low collision/cutaway/issue...  </soapbox>

   2. Years ago I heard an interview with Bill discussing his liking belly bands (not for discussing his original throw-outs, if you're that old) but simply a belly strap like the chest strap which helps keep the harness in the correct location on your body.  To that end, when I got my new rig with both rings, I also got an aftermarket belly band (https://www.chutingstar.com/swooper-belly-band) and put it through the lower rings to see how it changes the feel of the rig.  Again I like it snug.  (FWIW - I really like the feel and when my rig is next at Sunpath, I'll ask them to install a permanent belly strap that matches the chest strap and harness.)

With those adjustments, a correct sized harness, and the leg-strap bungie*, I have great flexibility and yet the harness doesn't feel like its wandering around...  things stay where they're supposed to be.

*btw - for the inter-legstrap connector: a friend pointed out that if you already have the attach tabs on your leg straps for this purpose, the Vector Sigma staging loop (https://store.uptvector.com/parts/tandem/sigma/) is GREAT for this...  larks head the loop on one leg, feed the free end through the other and secure with an overhand knot. Done.

Just my $.02,

JW

PS - PEP: agreed...  none of this is needed/advantageous on a Pilot Emergency Parachute.  They don't need to be worried about turning points, freefly or head down flying (other than that the container should be secure with wind loads at any angle).  They need to be secure in their harness. <period>  And the heavier/more complicated/expensive you make it, the less likely they are to buy and wear it.  IMHO

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Aviator Pilot Emergency Parachute comes stock with hip rings for two reasons. First, Sandy Reid wanted to invent a new piece of hardware that incorporated a ring and a friction adaptor. The hip ring is the same size as an RW-0, RW-1 or RW-10 harness ring of the 3-Ring release system. Thsi hardware reduces then number of stitches and wear points at the hip junction.

The second reason is to allow two different attach points for B-12 snaps to clip onto the hip rings. B-12s can snap on inboard, the same as regular harnesses ... or they can be snapped on outboard where they do not interfer with the complex seat-belts worn by aerobatic pilots. Any extra inboard hardware (crotch) can be painful when aerobatic pilots "push" negative Gs during outside loops.

Back during the 1980s, a few skydiving manufacturers (Roger Sport and Rigging Innovations) offered harnesses with outboard hip buckles. "Style" competitors found that outboard hardware made it easier to "tuck."

 

P.S. Jerry, Outboard hardware can simplify dressing when donning a lap type parachute.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hip rings make a huge difference in flexibility, especially when stuffing big guys (e.g. me) into small Cessnas. Hip rings also significantly improve flexibility in freefall and under canopy.

If the lower lateral back strap is tool long, the container will flop around - in loose formation - behind the jumper. This is most noticeable with second owners who are smaller than the original owner who had the harness custom-made to fit him precisely. 

Loose harnesses can allow the hip junction to slip too far aft, creating the same loose fit and belly bands are the easiest way to rectify miss-fitting harnesses. Belly bands are most helpful when small people wear harnesses that are too big for them. Look at tandems where student harnesses substitute for belly bands for instructors. This becomes doubly important when fitting large containers to small jumpers, like small women or any military freefall jumper with rucksack, rifle and snowshoes. Finally, belly-bands are a MUST for pond-swoopers who loosen their chest straps after opening ... to prevent them from falling out of their harnesses.

OTOH chest rings only add a little additional flexibility.

Originally, chest rings were thought to be an advantage because they allowed tightening chest straps to prevent shoulder straps from sliding off of shoulders, but over the last 30 years, most skydiving harness manufacturers have introduced a variety of shoulder yoke widths and lengths (e.g. Javelin A, B, C and D shoulder yokes) that fit so snug that chest straps are almost a luxury.

 

United Parachute Technologies does not offer chest rings because they perceive chest rings as a major increase in the cost of manufacture with little improvement in flexibility.

 

Finally, Rick Horn told a scary story about spinning under a malfunctioned main, but not being able to see his reserve ripcord, because it was tucked under his main lift web between his chest ring and hip ring. Rick was realllllllly glad he was wearing an RSL that day!

Rick had also recently done 20 or 30 intentional cutaways while filming a training video for the United States Air Force.

Edited by riggerrob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, riggerrob said:

Hip rings make a huge difference in flexibility, especially when stuffing big guys (e.g. me) into small Cessnas. Hip rings also significantly improve flexibility in freefall and under canopy.

If the lower lateral back strap is tool long, the container will flop around - in loose formation - behind the jumper. This is most noticeable with second owners who are smaller than the original owner who had the harness custom-made to fit him precisely. 

Loose harnesses can allow the hip junction to slip too far aft, creating the same loose fit and belly bands are the easiest way to rectify miss-fitting harnesses. Belly bands are most helpful when small people wear harnesses that are too big for them. Look at tandems where student harnesses substitute for belly bands for instructors. This becomes doubly important when fitting large containers to small jumpers, like small women or any military freefall jumper with rucksack, rifle and snowshoes. Finally, belly-bands are a MUST for pond-swoopers who loosen their chest straps after opening ... to prevent them from falling out of their harnesses.

OTOH chest rings only add a little additional flexibility.

Originally, chest rings were thought to be an advantage because they allowed tightening chest straps to prevent shoulder straps from sliding off of shoulders, but over the last 30 years, most skydiving harness manufacturers have introduced a variety of shoulder yoke widths and lengths (e.g. Javelin A, B, C and D shoulder yokes) that fit so snug that chest straps are almost a luxury.

 

United Parachute Technologies does not offer chest rings because they perceive chest rings as a major increase in the cost of manufacture with little improvement in flexibility.

 

Finally, Rick Horn told a scary story about spinning under a malfunctioned main, but not being able to see his reserve ripcord, because it was tucked under his main lift web between his chest ring and hip ring. Rick was realllllllly glad he was wearing an RSL that day!

Rick had also recently done 20 or 30 intentional cutaways while filming a training video for the United States Air Force.

Hi Rob,

Re:  'Outboard hardware can simplify dressing when donning a lap type parachute.'

IMO ease of donning a parachute should not reduce any safety aspects of a design.

Re:  'Hip rings make a huge difference in flexibility, especially when stuffing big guys (e.g. me) into small Cessnas. Hip rings also significantly improve flexibility in freefall and under canopy.'

I agree 100%.  If I were still building sport rigs, I would have hip rings as a no-cost standard.

Re:  ' Rick Horn told a scary story about spinning under a malfunctioned main, but not being able to see his reserve ripcord, because it was tucked under his main lift web between his chest ring and hip ring. '

I'm not sure just how it gets tucked under the MLW.  I guess another argument against have two sets of rings.

As I mentioned earlier, two sets of rings can allow the reserve ripcord & the cutaway handle to be back under one's armpit while in free fall.  That is just about the last place I would want it during a high-speed situation.

I still maintain that a PEP rig should not have hip rings.  I tried finding Jan Meyer's article on the 'hole' but could not.  That last thing a mfr wants is PEP user to fall out of his/her harness.  Split saddles on PEP rigs are bad enough IMO.

Jerry Baumchen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/22/2020 at 2:55 PM, riggerrob said:

Finally, Rick Horn told a scary story about spinning under a malfunctioned main, but not being able to see his reserve ripcord, because it was tucked under his main lift web between his chest ring and hip ring.

(this might be a moot question, but...)

Any idea if Rick had a "soft" reserve ripcord or silver handle?

 

JW

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

2 2