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Binary93

Cameraman caught in drogue bridle, then what?

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The video below shows such a situation. Of course, ideally you don't end up in this situation, but lets say you do.

Should the cameraman cut the bridle while still in tow with tandem or should they wait for the tandem cutaway?

At one hand, by cutting away immediately, the tandem loses drogue, accelerates, probably can't cutaway (no force on the dbag, etc).

On the other hand, the cameraman can hit the reserve canopy upon deployment.

My question is, what's the procedure here (both for cameraman and the TI)? When should the cameraman cut the bridle? When should TI cutaway? Disconnect the RSL or not? If yes, when should they deploy the reserve?

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=4495926453812875&id=1026073447464877

 

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(edited)

if the drogue is inflated with someone tangled up in it, the cameraman is not tracking anywhere. but yes the TI duty is the safety of the student so they will chop it and it will be all your problem.

Edited by husslr187
editing words to be a bit more clear
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12 hours ago, Binary93 said:

Thanks, I was asking more towards what should the cameraman do.

Wait for the cutaway, then try to track (or if that's impossible with an inflated drogue proceed to cut the bridle immediately after TI cuts away)?

He should wish he worked at a DZ that had skills standards for outside video and then kiss his sorry ass goodbye.

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1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

He should wish he worked at a DZ that had skills standards for outside video and then kiss his sorry ass goodbye.

Much wise, very wow, so constructive.

Thanks for contributing! Now go through all incident reports and suggest people don't end up in those. Not sure why anyone ever does anything wrong...

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there’s way too many variables to have one solid answer. the only thing consistent in this situation is there is a person entangled with the drogue. do whatever you can to make the situation better, equipment can be replaced. chances are the TI will chop before you exhaust your other options to free yourself and reach for your knife. at that point do whatever you need to, to live. they won’t be happy if you cut their equipment but they’ll be even less happy if you burn in.

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one other thing I thought about is AFTER  the TI chops his main you have a situation very similar to a horseshoe malfunction and you can treat it as such. only exception is you still have a main and reserve. two trys then deploy main. it would probably be easy to lose altitude awareness in this situation so this is likely your best bet  

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(edited)
On 9/22/2020 at 2:56 AM, Binary93 said:

Should the cameraman cut the bridle while still in tow with tandem or should they wait for the tandem cutaway?

Updating this reply after seeing the videos that Chuck shared below. I have always assumed that in this scenario the drogue would be hard to physically cut, but maybe I underestimated the hook knives function here.

I think your best outcome is still relies on the tandem instructor following the procedures to a t, so you can free yourself once the tandem pair is free from you. 

Edited by DougH
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(edited)
7 hours ago, Binary93 said:

Much wise, very wow, so constructive.

Thanks for contributing! Now go through all incident reports and suggest people don't end up in those. Not sure why anyone ever does anything wrong...

That was constructive. Real world constructive. A cameraman in a drogue isn't an accident. It's gross negligence. No one who isn't bullet proof in the air and has seriously good decision making skills has any business being anywhere near a tandem. Period. OJOT video is about learning to get the shot not learning how to fly. No one learning to skydive doesn't think they're better than they are. That's why I put it on the DZO. You need the money that bad get a second job but don't put Johnny Jet Shoes out with a Tandem and hope for the best. The final analysis here is prevention works.

Edited by JoeWeber

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Thanks Joe. While I fully agree with you, I disagree with your post being relevant and constructive towards the topic.

To put it in an analogy, it's as if someone asks "What's the procedure for handling side-by-side malfunction, land it or cutaway?" and you answer "Check your gear, don't have a side-by-side". Sure, prevention is the best, but lets also talk about situations where prevention fails.

Even "bulletproof" skilled folks can fail at some point for whatever reason, there's no such thing as perfect. Lets share knowledge, experience and opinions and learn.

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1 hour ago, DougH said:

These are thick tubular webbing made of Kevlar, with a kill line inside. A double razor blade based hook knife is going to jam. Even a ground edge solid hook knife like a Benchmade is going to have a hell of a time cutting through all of that while you are plummeting towards your death.

Plus it would be a real feat to pull yourself up above the entanglement point where it needs to be cut to free yourself while the tandem pair is still in tow.

Your best hope is that the tandem instructor follows the procedures to a t, and you can free yourself once there is less load on the drogue bridle. 

Not true. Check out the video link clearly showing a Jack knife slicing through the bridle like hot butter.

https://www.facebook.com/frickflyer/videos/3597604893625570

As for trouble reaching the bridle, I think adrenaline would solve that problem.

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10 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

He should wish he worked at a DZ that had skills standards for outside video and then kiss his sorry ass goodbye.

Do you know this drop zone, camera flyer, or the skill standards at the DZ in question? Really good skydivers make really bad mistakes, you know.

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I am surprised. 

5 minutes ago, chuckakers said:

Not true. Check out the video link clearly showing a Jack knife slicing through the bridle like hot butter.

https://www.facebook.com/frickflyer/videos/3597604893625570

As for trouble reaching the bridle, I think adrenaline would solve that problem.

That is awesome, thanks for sharing that. I have a Jack-the-ripper on every one of my jumpsuits including the pants I wear for tandems and camera suit, but I had always thought it would have a hard time in this circumstance.

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1 minute ago, chuckakers said:

Do you know this drop zone, camera flyer, or the skill standards at the DZ in question? Really good skydivers make really bad mistakes, you know.

Chuck, of course they do. Hell, I've been taken out by an Airspeed member. I'm simply thinking that you don't get caught in a drogue bridle unless you are fucking around or making selfish decisions. And with Tandems there should be zero fucking around and zero selfish decisions.

 

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5 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Chuck, of course they do. Hell, I've been taken out by an Airspeed member. I'm simply thinking that you don't get caught in a drogue bridle unless you are fucking around or making selfish decisions. And with Tandems there should be zero fucking around and zero selfish decisions.

 

Didn't appear to be any f'ing around or selfish decisions going on. Looks to me like a confusing (non-existent, actually) count. Never any rocking, hand motioning, vocal counting, or other obvious signals to indicate when the TI was leaving. You can hear him say "ok" (which the camera flyer may not have heard) then he just exits.

Based solely on the video, I give a lot of credit to the TI.

2 cents

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10 hours ago, DougH said:

I am surprised. 

That is awesome, thanks for sharing that. I have a Jack-the-ripper on every one of my jumpsuits including the pants I wear for tandems and camera suit, but I had always thought it would have a hard time in this circumstance.

Great minds think alike. I have one on every jumpsuit. Front of my right thigh (I'm right-handed).

If you don't have a hook knife when you need one, you may never need one again.

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23 hours ago, chuckakers said:

Based solely on the video, I give a lot of credit to the TI.

You do? Maybe his reaction to the problem was good, but I see the problem as his doing in the first place. Poor/no exit count (as you pointed out) contributes to the cameraman being in a bad place, but pitching the drogue into the cameraman was a horrible mistake that could have killed all three of them. Pitching a drogue is like deploying a main - you need to clear your airspace.

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1 hour ago, dudeman17 said:

You do? Maybe his reaction to the problem was good, but I see the problem as his doing in the first place. Poor/no exit count (as you pointed out) contributes to the cameraman being in a bad place, but pitching the drogue into the cameraman was a horrible mistake that could have killed all three of them. Pitching a drogue is like deploying a main - you need to clear your airspace.

Sorry, I meant to say I give a lot of credit "for the problem" to the TI. I agree with everything you said. I've shot a couple thousand tandems and it was most typical to see the TI check my position before tossing.

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On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2020 at 9:23 PM, chuckakers said:

Great minds think alike. I have one on every jumpsuit. Front of my right thigh (I'm right-handed).

If you don't have a hook knife when you need one, you may never need one again.

On the hook knife subject, is a hook knife strong enough to cut a tandem bridle ? I thought I read/heard they were made from a type of kevlar ?

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Unfortunately I don't have the link, but somewhere I recently saw a video where some jumpers (speaking Spanish?) were testing hook knives on tandem bridles, tensioned somewhat with one person at each side pulling the bridle. While the cheapest plastic knife had issues, any of the decent knives (Jack, Benchmade I think) cut the tandem bridles with no problem, with one easy slice. Impressive. 

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1 hour ago, Nabz said:

On the hook knife subject, is a hook knife strong enough to cut a tandem bridle ? I thought I read/heard they were made from a type of kevlar ?

i watched the video, linked in a comment above, then i bought one.  a little big, but damn, that thing cut through the bridle like butter.

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7 hours ago, Nabz said:

On the hook knife subject, is a hook knife strong enough to cut a tandem bridle ? I thought I read/heard they were made from a type of kevlar ?

Look at Chuck's post replying to me, post #13.

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I have a question :-) After they separated, and the camera person still has all of that wrapped around their foot when they opened. After they get under canopy it looks like they were trying to get it off their foot, and did, which then got caught in their canopy.

So the question, was removing it the best decision? I know not seeing what, where, and how tight, etc, it all was makes it difficult to say what exactly should be done, but what would you do in that situation?

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