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RunamukChuck

TI Yelling GO! from the back of the Otter

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Why does he have to get along with him?



Because it's not his place (with 60 jumps) to teach experienced jackass a lesson?



I wasn't talking about any lesson just saying he doesn't have to get along with the guy.
I have been the guy in the door getting screamed at to go. If you can't see out the door you have no idea what could be keeping the jumper from exiting.
I agree a conversation on the ground can help both people understand what is up.

Now if the instructor that is right behind the exiting newb tells him to get out then I would say he should take that advice.
You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

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Rick


Why does he have to get along with him? If you can't see out the door don't scream at someone to go



Yes, but a well though out, calm conversation can diffuse the situation.

We keep referring to the OP as a student. I think it's important to remember that at 60+ jumps, the OP probably doesn't see himself as a student. However, we're all students in this sport, even the "senior" TI who clearly has some lessons to learn.
Today's lesson...
1. Don't take too long in the door.
2. Don't scream at people who may be taking too long.
:)
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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RunamukChuck

I ask him if he was good with me giving him an 8 count and watching them make 45 degrees clear based on the uppers which were very light.



Read this thread:

www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=988627;search_string=45%20degree%20rule;#988627

If you have any questions about it, ASK.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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gunsmokex

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=145194;t=search_engine

You should know what the ground speed of the plane is before you get into the plane, based on the ground speed will determine your exit separation. But yes giving 8 seconds means leaving at 8 secs not starting climbout at 8 secs.



What I meant was you can find out what the ground speed is to determine how many seconds separation you will need. Click the link I posted. I was thinking that at a certain DZ I was at the ground speed was posted near manifest but actually is was the uppers. Its not too difficult to figure out the ground speed if you know the direction of jump run and the uppers though. Or just ask the pilot and he will tell you.

What I really don't like is when people just assume that 6 or 8 seconds is going to work just fine. If the ground speed is low then you are going to need a hell of a lot more time than just 6 or 8 seconds.

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chemist

What would you say is the reliability of your attention when you are in the door about to do a skydive to spot an aircraft 1-2 miles in horizontal distance? Particularly when you are not looking at the spot before the green light goes on, i.e. first group already left and pressure to set up in the door is on?



Ideally, the first group in the door does that check, as they're the ones with the luxury of more time, with the door open while waiting for the green light. But too many people don't do that any more...

Even if the first group fails to do so, it only takes a couple of seconds for the next guy up to the door to sweep their eyes around, while they're doing their count waiting to exit next.

If you're on jump run at 13,500', and you want to scan an area of two miles radius, that's less than a 45 degree downward angle. So, you're not really looking that far outward. Look down at the floor right now where you're sitting, and sweep your head so that you scan a 45-degree circle. Didn't take long, did it? If there was a bug crawling across the floor in that scan, I'll bet you would have seen it.

And the human eye is naturally attracted to movement. If something is out there, your eyes should zoom in on it automagically. You can't stop this from happening if you try - it's a hard-wired survival instinct that's probably millions of years old. Those that didn't have it, got eaten by saber-tooth tigers, and fulfilled Darwin's theory.

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You say you watched for clearance and then started to count... that may be the culprit here. The purpose of counting IS to get you clearance. If you watched them get clear and THEN started to count you did take to long. The other option to get clearance is a ruler 1000' long (or guessing, which is unreliable, even whend using the 45 degree rule to help guess). Sounds like you need a refresher. Take cold beer to an instructor at the end of their day and ask for a review of exit separation, why it's important, and how to get that information at your dz.

You can get groundspeed and/or the exit separation information in different places at different dz's, sometimes it's posted, sometimes they tell you in the plane, etc. Find it. They might not have exact information before the first load of the day, but will have a plan afterwards.

Also, consider that there are other factors for TI'S to yell. Maybe they were counting and you were late, maybe their passenger was sitting on their balls, who knows.

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Next time as a solo belly flyer you should be getting out BEFORE the free flyers! Exit order should be largest groups to smallest groups of belly fyers, then largest to smallest groups of free flyers, then students, tandems, wingsuiters, and high pullers. The reason belly flyers go before freeflyers is due to wind drift. Since belly flyers are in freefall longer than free flyers they can drift over the top of the freeflyers if they go out after them.

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seems kind of simple...:|
IF the Tandem Instructors are sensing " a long delay in groups Getting around to their Exit ".......
Instead of hollering Anything,,,, ( the tone of which I would guess, could upset or concern their student )......Can't they simply make a mental note to Check the Damn Spot.... some time after the drogue is Out..... And at THAT time, assess whether they are REAL Long.....?????:o
In which case, use a hand signal to "notify any outside video person " of that fact... and Pull somewhat higher than normal...!!! Our TMs would give us " the bird " sometimes 2 handed !!! when that was the case..... No issues... we all just pulled higher !!! and Everyone got Back !!!:)
jmy

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The guy in your video just says he doesnt agree and then defers the questioners to ask him again some other time. The other link seems to say that wingsuiters should always go last in case the high pullers have a malfunction AND the wingsuiters have such terrible exits that both the wingsuiters and high pullers (non-freefallers) end up in the same airspace?

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Macca provides an example of a situation where high pullers exiting last would present a problem and it's the same argument from Jarno. It doesn't require wingsuiters to have a bad exit. The point is that wingsuiters maintain significant forward speed and may follow the plane for a bit. A high puller exiting last and quickly slowing down creates a collision hazard that does not exist if the order is reversed.

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I wouldn't say it's a direct result. As is often the case in aviation accidents, it's a chain of events, and wingsuiters following the airplane, even on a slightly different heading, would probably be one link in that chain. Letting high pulls go out first eliminates this risk and the need for wingsuiters to take avoiding actions without introducing any new problems.

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billvon

However in this case the poster noted that "I'm flying solo belly."

I'm thinking he should have been out first, ahead of the freefly group.


Quote

The TI, who is used to groups climbing out as soon as the previous group exits, can see that lone solo standing back there and get nervous because "things are different now."

That's a pretty stupid TI who hasn't seen this before and doesn't understand the need for time separation. :S

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>I'm thinking he should have been out first, ahead of the freefly group.

That's generally the better approach - but depends on the DZ. From a pure separation perspective, it's generally better to have him out first. But there may be cases where the new solo needs supervision, or they have to leave extra time anyway for fear he will backslide into another group.

>That's a pretty stupid TI who hasn't seen this before and doesn't understand the need
>for time separation.

Well, or a TM who is more focused on making it back than what happens to all the other groups. (i.e. somewhat myopic rather than stupid.)

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billvon



Well, or a TM who is more focused on making it back than what happens to all the other groups. (i.e. somewhat myopic rather than stupid.)

Good point about his possible P.O.V.

I've been in his shoes enough times. Look down, pull high, or ask for a go around.

I will admit to chuckling a bit when I watch total confusion in the door on jumprun. Safety issue? Maybe, but no one says I HAVE to jump out when it's my turn. Easier to find it amusing.

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SkySquatchy

And the human eye is naturally attracted to movement. If something is out there, your eyes should zoom in on it automagically. You can't stop this from happening if you try


This might be true to some extent, but that doesn't really apply to skydiving.
You're probably not going to miss a bear running towards you in the woods, but it's most certainly possible to not see a glider cruising along a couple of kilometers under and away from the aircraft you're about to leave.

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>You're probably not going to miss a bear running towards you in the woods, but it's
>most certainly possible to not see a glider cruising along a couple of kilometers under
>and away from the aircraft you're about to leave.

I find it's pretty easy to pick out motion as long as it's unique. I likely wouldn't miss a glider a mile away from the DZ (long wings on those things and they move relatively quickly) - but I might well miss it because it's close to a road full of cars moving at about the same speed. It's hard to see canopies, for example, because of how small they are and how slow they are moving.

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billvon



. I likely wouldn't miss a glider a mile away from the DZ (long wings on those things and they move relatively quickly)

Pacific Skydiving on North Shore, Oahu, where I get to jump from time to time, shares the airport with a very active glider operation. Those long white wings really stand out against the dark green ridgeline they frequent. Really easy for me to spot, even in freefall. :)

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skyjumpenfool

1. Don't take too long in the door.
2. Don't scream at people who may be taking too long.
:)


Shall we switch that order around? To me, screaming at someone in the plane is only ever acceptable if there is a serious safety issue, like a pilot chute creeping for the door without the owner realizing it. Anyone screaming stuff like "GO!" in the plane is a giant asshole that need a serious lesson in chilling out.

Worst part is when they scream "GO!" or "Door!" or shit like that at me when we have our very own jumprun at lower altitude. Best part is seeing them exit immediately after us when we're doing CRW and going out two miles short :D

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IJskonijn

***1. Don't take too long in the door.
2. Don't scream at people who may be taking too long.
:)


Shall we switch that order around?

No need to switch the order. "We all need to continue to learn in this sport" was my point. I wasn't trying to place blame or rank any ones level of Dickness. B|
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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chips26

I find that the middle finger is all the communication thats needed for people of this type. You choose when to jump, period, and the doorman is pretty much responsible for the safety of everyone on the load in regards to the spot.



Equally productive! Bravo. :D

I don't scream at people to Go, or get out. I have been at dropzones where the TI's start screaming go the second the green light goes on, and work their way up to a shrill GET THE FUCK OUT. It is pretty unprofessional from the student experience point of view.

On the opposite end of the spectrum I have seen people mock up their exit in the door, for fuck sake be ready to jump, take the right exit delay, and go.

We all need to work together, and both the TI's and the fun jumpers can either cooperate, or they can be jackasses.

So yes, the group in the door chooses when to jump, and they shouldn't be pressured to jump when the spot is bad, there is traffic, or clouds; they also shouldn't dick around when the above doesn't apply.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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I've often thought it was also unprofessional to put TI's on such a tight rotation as to not be able to use the restroom or eat during the day without taking yourself out of the rotation.
Which can be accomplished by the newb sitting in the door instead of exiting.
:P
I've also been passed in the door by TI's due to cloud cover while waiting on a hole...and the TI took a peek at the GPS on the aircraft and felt he needed to make money.
:D

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