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RunamukChuck

TI Yelling GO! from the back of the Otter

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So I'm on a full 13K load of tandems and students with a free fly 4 way 1st out in front of me. I'm flying solo belly with an AFF level 5 behind me and a sea of tandems filling out the rest of the load. On the ride up one of the free flyers asks what how many jumps I have and I let him know that I've got 56 jumps. I ask him if he was good with me giving him an 8 count and watching them make 45 degrees clear based on the uppers which were very light. He leans past me and asks the AFF instructor to spot for me following their exit. No worries, I figure I don't know what I don't know so no big deal but how the hell am I going to learn this if no one talks about it. So the 4 way exits, I watch for clearance and start to count off. I'm at 4 on the count when I hear the senior TI in the back yelling GO!!!!!!! I get that the TI's are tired and don't want to make a second pass but if I'm in the door it's my responsibility to make sure the seperation is there for the group in front of me. I finished my 8 count , cleared the door and swung out for a floating exit just cuz at that point. Any suggestions on how to improve in the door would be appreciated.
Air Cooled, Gravity Powered

SRA #6305

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An old story by Billvon:

Quote

>So he starts yelling out to me that I need to jump because the green light is on.

What I have found works in situations like this is to take my helmet off and climb back to him to hear what the emergency is he's yelling about. When he says "Just go, dammit!" walk back to the door, put your helmet on, check your handles and go - thus giving you the 15 seconds you need, and allowing him to express himself in the meantime.





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if the goal was to exit at an 8 count you needed to start climbing out earlier

and if you are looking for 45 degrees you are an idiot, anyone that taught you to do that is an idiot

this topic has been discussed for years and the 45 degree rule does not work, it's just crazy that it even comes up
Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

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Fuck em,

It's your choice to leave the aircraft. How do they know you didn't just see another aircraft below, or noticed that the spot is bad.

Familiarize yourself with exit speeds and what seperation is required. Also the number of groups exiting so that the spot is adjusted accordingly.

8 seconds doesn't mean 8 seconds until you start your climb out it's 8 seconds between departures so you should have left the AC at 8.
Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

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> I'm at 4 on the count when I hear the senior TI in the back yelling GO!

Quincy story -

Winsor and I have a low time ~8-way we are taking up. Winsor looks out the door and says "big cloud right under us, we're not going." And it was a big one - one of those wet looking cumulus.

TM from the back of the plane starts yelling "GO! GO!"

I yell back "We're not going!"

He says "Look, I have 1000 jumps and there's nothing wrong with jumping through a cloud! It's doesn't hurt! Just GO!" (Note that at Quincy there are generally no goarounds - the plane has to land if you can't get out.)

Both of us yell back "we're not going!" to him. He says "FINE!" and starts pushing his way to the back of the plane, making sure to slam into our group as he goes by. He exits (as do a few other tandems.)

The pilot turns around and says "the south jump run is reporting it's clear of clouds. Do you want to try a second pass?"

We say "Sure!" A few minutes later we're over the south jump run with just enough space between clouds to make the jump.

We land and walk back to the tent. As I am walking back I see the TM's student. His jumpsuit is soaking wet and his face is red (except for what's covered by his goggles) from hitting all the rain on the way down.

Didn't see the TM again that day.

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If you don’t know how long to wait ask someone in the plane for help, before jump run. Unless it is the first load of the day you can get what jump run speed prior to jump run and if it is the first load ask for the jump run speed to be relayed back when there. I never advocate yelling on the plane to exit but if someone is taking two or three times the needed time at some point it needs to be done. Just remember these large turbine aircraft we all jump out of come from the tandems not your fun jumping and if the spot is really long who gets the shorter skydive (the tandem that paid $200 plus for the jump) not the experienced skydiver. Be safe with the correct amount of separation but be mindful of taking longer as the ones getting hosed are the ones who paid the most for the skydive
Kirk
He's dead Jim

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gunsmokex

You should know what the ground speed of the plane is before you get into the plane, based on the ground speed will determine your exit separation.


There is no way of knowing the ground speed of the plane before you get into the plane. Ground speed will vary based on the current wind conditions at altitude on jump run. Only way to find out what your ground speed is, is to ask the pilot when he/she is on jump run. Some drop zones will do this while others don't. At my home DZ the pilot will typically announce what ground speed is shortly before the first group exits.

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billeisele

if the goal was to exit at an 8 count you needed to start climbing out earlier

and if you are looking for 45 degrees you are an idiot, anyone that taught you to do that is an idiot

this topic has been discussed for years and the 45 degree rule does not work, it's just crazy that it even comes up



1. He only needed to "start climbing out earlier" if he was going to climb out. If he was just diving out the door that wouldn't be necessary.

2. Back off of the guy. At 56 jumps I wouldn't say he's an idiot for using a technique he's obviously been taught.

To the OP, you're not an idiot for using the 45 degree rule if it was taught to you, but it is bogus. Go tell the person who told you to use it that they are an idiot, but before you do educate yourself on why the 45 degree rule doesn't work so you can defend your position. ;)

Also, work the plan and ignore the jackasses. You spoke to an instructor in the plane and agreed on a safe separation time. You executed the plan. That should have been the end of it.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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hcsvader

Fuck em,

It's your choice to leave the aircraft. How do they know you didn't just see another aircraft below, or noticed that the spot is bad.



Well if you just saw an aircraft below there is no way you can fall fast enough to get down to it to hit it. It's the plane you can't see that you are at risk of hitting!

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chemist

***Fuck em,

It's your choice to leave the aircraft. How do they know you didn't just see another aircraft below, or noticed that the spot is bad.



Well if you just saw an aircraft below there is no way you can fall fast enough to get down to it to hit it. It's the plane you can't see that you are at risk of hitting!

"Below" doesn't necessarily mean directly underneath you. If it's at a lower altitude, and moving towards you at 120 mph from a mile or two away, it could intersect with your freefall path. So you don't just check underneath you, you also need to scan around the horizon in a circle, as much as possible.

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SkySquatchy

******Fuck em,

It's your choice to leave the aircraft. How do they know you didn't just see another aircraft below, or noticed that the spot is bad.



Well if you just saw an aircraft below there is no way you can fall fast enough to get down to it to hit it. It's the plane you can't see that you are at risk of hitting!

"Below" doesn't necessarily mean directly underneath you. If it's at a lower altitude, and moving towards you at 120 mph from a mile or two away, it could intersect with your freefall path. So you don't just check underneath you, you also need to scan around the horizon in a circle, as much as possible.

What would you say is the reliability of your attention when you are in the door about to do a skydive to spot an aircraft 1-2 miles in horizontal distance? Particularly when you are not looking at the spot before the green light goes on, i.e. first group already left and pressure to set up in the door is on?

I think the biggest risk for collision is at deployment altitude this is where the more amateur pilots are more likely to be flying around 3000-4000' and more prone to miss out on the fact that they are flying over a dropzone. Most pp's on their Cessna 172's won't be flying above 9000' routinely. Commercial operations should know enough to stay out of DZ airspace although as we all know from scary pictures and videos this is not always true!

DISCLOSURE: IF YOU SEE A PLANE BELOW DON'T JUMP!!

...even though I still think the probably of hitting a plane you see is extremely low

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RunamukChuck

I get that the TI's are tired and don't want to make a second pass ....



Thats a terrible excuse for yelling at other jumpers and forcing them to sacrifice their own safety.

Assuming you didn't mess up your count I'd say you did exactly the right thing.

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RunamukChuck

....when I hear the senior TI in the back yelling GO!!!!!!! I get that the TI's are tired and don't want to make a second pass but if I'm in the door it's my responsibility ......



First of all, what's a senior TI? ;)

Here's the best advise I've got for ya... Go talk to the TI. Tell him what you were thinking, listen to what he has to say, ask other Instructors for their opinion, and call this a teachable moment. You've gotta get along with him (the TI) in the future, let him know your a student that wants to learn. And, my guess is, he'll probably feel like a jackass for being one. :)
To quote my wife... "kill him with kindness".
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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skyjumpenfool

*** ....when I hear the senior TI in the back yelling GO!!!!!!! I get that the TI's are tired and don't want to make a second pass but if I'm in the door it's my responsibility ......



First of all, what's a senior TI? ;)

Here's the best advise I've got for ya... Go talk to the TI. Tell him what you were thinking, listen to what he has to say, ask other Instructors for their opinion, and call this a teachable moment. You've gotta get along with him (the TI) in the future, let him know your a student that wants to learn. And, my guess is, he'll probably feel like a jackass for being one. :)
To quote my wife... "kill him with kindness".


Why does he have to get along with him? If you can't see out the door don't scream at someone to go
You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

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I'll throw a comment out there from a TI that is often riding in the back of the bus. Even before getting on the aircraft we have a good idea on jump run - the winds are very consistent at the DZ I jump at. Therefore, we know the ground speed and the exit delay between groups. The procedures are well documented about exit procedure. The pilots know when to turn on red and green lights.

However, if you say 6 seconds between groups - people will wait 6 seconds then start climb out - then give exit count. Equating to much more like 10-12 seconds between groups. Depending upon the number of groups this can mean that the last out the aircraft are a long way out. Low experience jumpers will often take this time to climb out to do a solo exit - so its not just groups.

My take is that the time between groups is just that. The time between groups exiting. Do take the climb out time into account - especially on days when there are high groundspeed run ins.

Also bear in mind that on some days you may be getting out short of the DZ. Our pilot is given exact points to turn on red and green lights. Red light you can be looking out for traffic etc.. getting door open and ready to jump. 10 seconds later when the green light is one then you should be ready to leave. Exit points are a bit of a compromise in that everyone can't have a perfect spot but everyone can get a spot that should land them back on the airport.

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>However, if you say 6 seconds between groups - people will wait 6 seconds then start
>climb out - then give exit count. Equating to much more like 10-12 seconds between
>groups.

Agreed. In fact, even a good 4-way team will take 6-7 seconds from start of climbout to exit, so unless winds are unusually strong you can exit as fast as you can climb them out.

However in this case the poster noted that "I'm flying solo belly." And in those cases the opposite can happen. The TI, who is used to groups climbing out as soon as the previous group exits, can see that lone solo standing back there and get nervous because "things are different now."

I agree with the comment that he should talk to the TI - both so that the new jumper can learn about the TI's concerns, and the TI can hear what the new jumper needs in terms of exit timing. That can help avoid all the shouting in the plane, which can be dangerous in and of itself.

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billvon

>However, if you say 6 seconds between groups - people will wait 6 seconds then start
>climb out - then give exit count. Equating to much more like 10-12 seconds between
>groups.

Agreed. In fact, even a good 4-way team will take 6-7 seconds from start of climbout to exit, so unless winds are unusually strong you can exit as fast as you can climb them out.

However in this case the poster noted that "I'm flying solo belly." And in those cases the opposite can happen. The TI, who is used to groups climbing out as soon as the previous group exits, can see that lone solo standing back there and get nervous because "things are different now."

I agree with the comment that he should talk to the TI - both so that the new jumper can learn about the TI's concerns, and the TI can hear what the new jumper needs in terms of exit timing. That can help avoid all the shouting in the plane, which can be dangerous in and of itself.




I agree that having a plan prior to going up and discussing concerns on the ground is much better than yelling in the aircraft.

Simply saying they can do another pass is not an ideal solution either. Perhaps if both sat down and discussed the problem and resolution in the calm light of day then things can be worked out.

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