I did not have sex with that woman

[Coreece 189]

21 minutes ago, yoink said:

So you wouldn't immediately refute it if I said 'Trump is Coreece's hero!'...? Or even 'Trump is the hero of every conservative'.

Bullshit. Of course you would.

Phil and olof have said similar things to me a number of times already and I don't think I've entertained any of it.  Phil should know better, and olof is just an admitted troll that gets off on it, so he's not worth much of my time.

 

30 minutes ago, yoink said:

And that's why you're seeing people jump on airdvr's post - not because Clinton is a hero of 'the left' but because people don't like that nonsense assumption being made about them just because they associate with a more liberal political philosophy. 

Fine, but that's no excuse to automatically default to a defensive/dismissive attitude against Clinton's possible complicity given his sleezebag history and ties to epstein, especially when rushing to judgement comes so easily to them when it's somebody on the "other side."

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

17 minutes ago, airdvr said:

If Trump is guilty I hope he enjoys being someone's bitch in prison.

Hi airdvr,

FINALLY - Something we both can agree with.

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  IMO most thinking Americans know that Bill Clinton is a sleazeball.  While I voted for him in '92*, I could not in '96.

* To me, by '92, Bush 43 was a tired old man.

 

[billvon 2,384]

7 hours ago, airdvr said:

Looks like left's hero just might be a pedophile.

And the right's hero supports the woman who set up an underage sex ring for Epstein.

No one wins.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

47 minutes ago, airdvr said:

If Trump is guilty I hope he enjoys being someone's bitch in prison.

Man, do you pack a lot into a little sentence. Ignoring the notion that you think anal sex is a fitting punishment, are we free to expect that in the future proven guilt is your new standard?

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

2 hours ago, normiss said:

Could you refer us to any accusations or charges of any sexually related crimes?

There were a few accusations of sexual assault against Bill. 

Not just harassment, which led to the lawsuit which led to the deposition, which led to the perjury, which led to the impeachment.

But actual sexual assault. 

No charges, due to some credibility issues.

Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_sexual_misconduct_allegations

[normiss 620]

2 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

There were a few accusations of sexual assault against Bill. 

Not just harassment, which led to the lawsuit which led to the deposition, which led to the perjury, which led to the impeachment.

But actual sexual assault. 

No charges, due to some credibility issues.

Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_sexual_misconduct_allegations

Thanks. Interesting I had forgotten about those, maybe due to lack of action or his fading into obscurity. Don't know which.

Not to any accusations specifically, but I do find it odd how we deal with accusations sometimes. It's a challenging arena trying to find the truth. I think as far as a legal perspective goes, without proof, doubt should win. There are times when the stain grows large enough so that we no longer trust or have confidence in the accused though. The reactions at that point are sometimes quite confusing to me. They either end up in jail, fired, sued, hated and attacked forever, elected POTUS, or even appointed to the Supreme Court.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

1 minute ago, normiss said:

Thanks. Interesting I had forgotten about those, maybe due to lack of action or his fading into obscurity. Don't know which.

Not to any accusations specifically, but I do find it odd how we deal with accusations sometimes. It's a challenging arena trying to find the truth. I think as far as a legal perspective goes, without proof, doubt should win. There are times when the stain grows large enough so that we no longer trust or have confidence in the accused though. The reactions at that point are sometimes quite confusing to me. They either end up in jail, fired, sued, hated and attacked forever, elected POTUS, or even appointed to the Supreme Court.

Nicely put.

The basic concept of 'presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" is central to our justice system (or at least it was supposed to  be).

For a long, long time that concept was stretched beyond belief for women accusing men of sexual assault. 
The prior sexual history of the woman could be brought up, but the prior accusations against the man could not.
Women were accused of 'enticing' the man.

No surprise that something like 2/3 of assaults went unreported.

Fortunately, times are changing.

[billvon 2,384]

51 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

The basic concept of 'presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" is central to our justice system (or at least it was supposed to  be).
 

Agreed.  However, that does NOT port to "if they are not guilty they are innocent."

When you interview people for a job, and you call one of their references, and they say "well, he actually was stealing from the company and that's why we fired him" he is not guilty of theft.  But it also means you might not hire him.  Ideally you'd confirm this with someone else (in case it's a grudge or something) but you don't have to supply the burden of proof that a trial would entail.  You can decide that since he is probably a thief you won't hire him.

This applies to presidential candidates, supreme court nominees and pretty much any elected/appointed figure.  A list of 14 women who said they were raped or sexually assaulted by a candidate, along with an admission of that on camera, for example, does not make them legally guilty of rape.  But it is sure something you might want to consider when you are voting.

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi folks,

Just saw this:  'Judge Releases Trove Of Sealed Records Related To Lawsuit Against Ghislaine Maxwell'

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/31/896627505/judge-releases-trove-of-sealed-records-related-to-case-against-ghislaine-maxwell

If I were Randy Andy I would be a little worried.

Jerry Baumchen

[gowlerk 1,903]

6 hours ago, yoink said:

and he’s never been accused of any form of sexual assault.

Actually, he has. But not with a minor.

[turtlespeed 212]

9 hours ago, gowlerk said:

So far it would appear that it is possible he flew on the same airplane has some young girls. That does not make anyone a pedophile. No one has stepped forward to accuse him of having sex with Underaged girls. So why are you saying he may be a pedophile?

For the same reason that Trump is vilified for saying to "Grab them by the pussy" It doesn't mean he does. It means he was trying to satisfy his ego by boasting and bragging.

If you think that Clinton, on a plane with several underage girls, and Epstein . . . . didn't raise at least a couple flags in his thought process . . .  That's quite amazing.

[turtlespeed 212]

8 hours ago, yoink said:

Bill Clinton isn’t anyone’s ‘hero’ much less an entire set of the population’s, and he’s never been accused of any form of sexual assault.

 

Well then - You obviously were not part of Talk Back and then Speakers Corner when Clinton was President and newly out of office.

[kallend 1,621]

2 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

For the same reason that Trump is vilified for saying to "Grab them by the pussy" It doesn't mean he does. It means he was trying to satisfy his ego by boasting and bragging.

 

Are you suggesting that Trump lied about his being a sexual predator?  That he lied about going uninvited into the  Miss Teen USA changing room?

That he's a LIAR?

Oh the humanity!

[billvon 2,384]

3 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

For the same reason that Trump is vilified for saying to "Grab them by the pussy" It doesn't mean he does. It means he was trying to satisfy his ego by boasting and bragging.

If you think that Clinton, on a plane with several underage girls, and Epstein . . . . didn't raise at least a couple flags in his thought process . . .  That's quite amazing.

Well, but see, if someone accuses guy 1 of sexual assault, and he admits it on camera, and has 11 women accuse him of sexual assault, and 3 women accuse him of rape, and if he is named in a court case over a sex coverup as a "co-conspirator" - the odds of him being guilty are fairly high.

If someone accuses guy 2 of pedophilia, but no women accuse him of it, and no evidence has emerged other than he was in an airplane once - that's a little different, don't you think?

Here's a challenge for you.  Which of those two have been accused of sexual misconduct with underage women more often?  (By the women themselves - not by your Facebook pals.)

[yoink 321]

6 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Actually, he has. But not with a minor.

Yeah, I'm catching up. 

I'm not too up on pre-Obama US politics. I'm working to remedy that.

[jakee 1,254]

6 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

For the same reason that Trump is vilified for saying to "Grab them by the pussy" It doesn't mean he does. It means he was trying to satisfy his ego by boasting and bragging.

Judgig by the number of women who have accused him of grabbing them by the pussy it means he was boasting and bragging about something he does.

[turtlespeed 212]

9 hours ago, billvon said:

Well, but see, if someone accuses guy 1 of sexual assault, and he admits it on camera, and has 11 women accuse him of sexual assault, and 3 women accuse him of rape, and if he is named in a court case over a sex coverup as a "co-conspirator" - the odds of him being guilty are fairly high.

If someone accuses guy 2 of pedophilia, but no women accuse him of it, and no evidence has emerged other than he was in an airplane once - that's a little different, don't you think?

Here's a challenge for you.  Which of those two have been accused of sexual misconduct with underage women more often?  (By the women themselves - not by your Facebook pals.)

There are Trump apologists and there are Clinton Apologists . . .

[sfzombie13 307]

16 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

There are Trump apologists and there are Clinton Apologists . . .

yep.  i hate seeing any of them, because they are all human and make mistakes.  some mistakes are a little worse than others.   i have no doubt that bill was on the plane, and he probably had sex with someone at the island, and they may have been underage.  that leaves a little room for doubt, not much though.  it is still all based on hearsay and impressions i got from watching him being interviewed.  fortunately, i don't have to assess his guilt or innocence in a courtroom, so it means much less if i am wrong, and am sometimes.  on the other hand, agent orange has continually lied, cheated, and been caught and convicted at least once.  he has so many scandals, business failings, and criminals surrounding and working for him there is no way in hell he is innocent of anything.  most of this may be circumstantial and may not hold up in court, but that does not mean he is innocent, merely that he won't do any time.  anyone with any substantial amount of money won't have to sweat that anyway. 

all of that is a rather long way to say that neither of them are blameless, and if dirt shows up on clinton, let him rot in a cell with trump who is guilty as hell without a doubt.  i don't think he'll make it much past next year though, his boy putin has no use for him after he leaves office and he knows it.  i think that's what he is up against and the real reason he is trying to tear us apart and do as much damage as possible before leaving.  has to be some sort of agreement in place.  it's the only thing that makes any sense at all. 

and no, i don't agree with clinton apologists either. 

Edited August 1, 2020 by sfzombie13
clarity

[kallend 1,621]

14 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

There are Trump apologists and there are Clinton Apologists . . .

Being a Trump apologist is more  like being a Mussolini apologist. 

Is there a "Clinton Death Clock" anywhere?
https://trumpdeathclock.com/

[kallend 1,621]

18 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

There are Trump apologists and there are Clinton Apologists . . .

So don't support either in November.  Then your conscience will be clear.

[turtlespeed 212]

What makes you think I would?

 

[turtlespeed 212]

4 minutes ago, kallend said:

Being a Trump apologist is more  like being a Mussolini apologist. 

Is there a "Clinton Death Clock" anywhere?
https://trumpdeathclock.com/

Jump to the defense of a "less worse" criminal - good for you.

[turtlespeed 212]

7 minutes ago, sfzombie13 said:

yep.  i hate seeing any of them, because they are all human and make mistakes.  some mistakes are a little worse than others.   i have no doubt that bill was on the plane, and he probably had sex with someone at the island, and they may have been underage.  that leaves a little room for doubt, not much though.  it is still all based on hearsay and impressions i got from watching him being interviewed.  fortunately, i don't have to assess his guilt or innocence in a courtroom, so it means much less if i am wrong, and am sometimes.  on the other hand, agent orange has continually lied, cheated, and been caught and convicted at least once.  he has so many scandals, business failings, and criminals surrounding and working for him there is no way in hell he is innocent of anything.  most of this may be circumstantial and may not hold up in court, but that does not mean he is innocent, merely that he won't do any time.  anyone with any substantial amount of money won't have to sweat that anyway. 

all of that is a rather long way to say that neither of them are blameless, and if dirt shows up on clinton, let him rot in a cell with trump who is guilty as hell without a doubt.  i don't think he'll make it much past next year though, his boy putin has no use for him after he leaves office and he knows it.  i think that's what he is up against and the real reason he is trying to tear us apart and do as much damage as possible before leaving.  has to be some sort of agreement in place.  it's the only thing that makes any sense at all. 

and no, i don't agree with clinton apologists either. 

We agree on most of this.

You have a self admitted sex addict on a plane with sex slaves and prostitutes . . . 

It's not a stretch to believe that Clinton is any less guilty than Trump.

 

[Phil1111 908]

13 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

We virtually never agree on anything

You have a self admitted sex addict on a plane with sex slaves and prostitutes . . . 

It's not a stretch to believe that Clinton and trump are both potentially guilty.

 

FIFY. See 5000 points of debate and we have agreement on one!

Edited August 1, 2020 by Phil1111

[turtlespeed 212]

5 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

FIFY. See 5000 points of debate and we have agreement on one!

Nope - I don't care how much you want me to this person you are trying to say I am.

I said what I meant. 

If we were speaking to each other - then yes, the virtually never agree thing would be correct.  I was speaking directly to sfzombie13.

So no - you didn't fix it for me, you inserted your own internal narrative, and projected.

And the last part should read: 

5 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

It's not a stretch to believe that Clinton is potentially as guilty as Trump has that potential.

There - I fixed it for you.

Edited August 1, 2020 by turtlespeed