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Neoslim22

FAA rules on observer rides

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DBCOOPER

***You are over thinking it and being too nit picky. Not all rules and regulations in all things are written perfectly to cover all eventualities. The idea is, in a plane converted for skydiving operations, occupants not using a seat need to have a parachute on. For example, sometimes you fly to a demo planning to land with the plane at the demo site first. You secure the area or whatever and then you get on the plane for the actual jump. By your thinking the ride over to the site would be illegal. But no one would think that. It's simply industry standard for people in a skydiving plane who are sitting on the floor wear a parachute. That is the intent of the rule and it covers observer rides just as would for your ride over to another airport.



All depends on what the man with the badge says. I would never show up at an air show demo with the jumpers on board. I would have them meet me there because I know the Feds would be there and depending on their mood it could be an issue. You can't use the "thats the way we do it" answer when it's in the regs. Industry standards do not change what the regs say. I couldn't do the ride to another airport with all the seats in, legally, if somebody was paying me.

Wait a minute. You think it's ok to take an observer who will have to sit on the floor in clear violation of FAR's by simply charging or not charging for the ride, yet you wouldn't fly demo jumpers to the demo site in fear of getting busted?

Mr. Cooper, you certainly have an interesting way of seeing things.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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SStewart

***No age, no parachute requirement in the regs.



With an open door you must have a rig on. You can't sign the waiver to go for a ride if you are not 18 regs or not.

Not true in either case.

There are many planes that don't require non-jumpers to wear a parachute. Whether or not a person needs a rig is based on whether the inflight door was approved with or without a parachute use requirement. Otters, Caravans, etc. have in-flight doors but do not require the pilot or non-jumpers to wear a parachute.

On the age issue, signing a waiver has nothing to do with FAR's and a DZ is completely legal to take a minor as long as all regulations are being complied with. Many (most?) DZ's would refuse a minor, but that would be because of liability, not because of regulation.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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An observer is in no way engaged in the jumping process and MUST use an approved seat. I've been over it dozens of times with my FSDO and individual field folks over the years and this was always their interpretation.

And have you ever seen or heard of an operation being cited for breaking this interpretation off the rule? Observer rides happen at almost every dropzone. Many dz's have FAA people on site. If this is "always there interpretation" one would think many dz's would have been cited for this violation. Has it ever happened that we know of?

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>For example, sometimes you fly to a demo planning to land with the plane at the demo
>site first. You secure the area or whatever and then you get on the plane for the
>actual jump. By your thinking the ride over to the site would be illegal.

It, in fact, is. We usually get away with it, though. I've done it several times, and only once did the DZO actually take the care to jump through all the hoops to make it a legal commercial flight. As with many other parts of skydiving, we are able to do it primarily because no one really cares.

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chuckakers

******No age, no parachute requirement in the regs.



With an open door you must have a rig on. You can't sign the waiver to go for a ride if you are not 18 regs or not.

Not true in either case.

There are many planes that don't require non-jumpers to wear a parachute. Whether or not a person needs a rig is based on whether the inflight door was approved with or without a parachute use requirement. Otters, Caravans, etc. have in-flight doors but do not require the pilot or non-jumpers to wear a parachute.

On the age issue, signing a waiver has nothing to do with FAR's and a DZ is completely legal to take a minor as long as all regulations are being complied with. Many (most?) DZ's would refuse a minor, but that would be because of liability, not because of regulation.

Wrong!

Read it again Chuck, you must have missed the last 3 words. regs or not
At my DZ and every other DZ I have jumped at for over 30 years you do not get in the plane without a rig and a signed waiver period. Don't like it? Go somewhere else (you will probably get the same answer)
Onward and Upward!

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ShotterMG

An observer is in no way engaged in the jumping process and MUST use an approved seat. I've been over it dozens of times with my FSDO and individual field folks over the years and this was always their interpretation.

And have you ever seen or heard of an operation being cited for breaking this interpretation off the rule? Observer rides happen at almost every dropzone. Many dz's have FAA people on site. If this is "always there interpretation" one would think many dz's would have been cited for this violation. Has it ever happened that we know of?



I didn't say it was enforced. That wasn't the context of the conversation. I said it's against the FAR's - and it is.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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SStewart

*********No age, no parachute requirement in the regs.



With an open door you must have a rig on. You can't sign the waiver to go for a ride if you are not 18 regs or not.

Not true in either case.

There are many planes that don't require non-jumpers to wear a parachute. Whether or not a person needs a rig is based on whether the inflight door was approved with or without a parachute use requirement. Otters, Caravans, etc. have in-flight doors but do not require the pilot or non-jumpers to wear a parachute.

On the age issue, signing a waiver has nothing to do with FAR's and a DZ is completely legal to take a minor as long as all regulations are being complied with. Many (most?) DZ's would refuse a minor, but that would be because of liability, not because of regulation.

Wrong!

Read it again Chuck, you must have missed the last 3 words. regs or not
At my DZ and every other DZ I have jumped at for over 30 years you do not get in the plane without a rig and a signed waiver period. Don't like it? Go somewhere else (you will probably get the same answer)

Then you and I have had dramatically different experiences. I have personal knowledge of many, many "DZ kids" - mine included - going for rides long before they were 18. I have worked at DZ's, managed DZ's, and owned a DZ. There were minors taken on observer rides at each one I've been associated with. Some were legal (co-pilot seat of Twin Otter, Porters, Caravans, and King Airs), and some not legal (sitting on the floor of a Cessna).

I even know a couple kids that got to ride on the toilet seat in the back of a very, very fast King Air while their ol' man was away at a competition. :)
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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Wrong again Chucky boy! Observer rides are a part of sport parachuting. Always have been. Observers are given a parachute, shown how to use it and put on a plane. Every skydiver and person on the plane has the choice to Jump or not once the door is opened. Nobody has to jump. Which is why nobody has ever been cited for it.

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...which is why the fars only say you need a duel parachute piggy back harness. There is no mention of what kind of training you need or that you have to jump. If you don't like the winds or get a bad feeling you can ride down. No far says you have to jump! That would be stupid.

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ShotterMG

Wrong again Chucky boy! Observer rides are a part of sport parachuting. Always have been. Observers are given a parachute, shown how to use it and put on a plane. Every skydiver and person on the plane has the choice to Jump or not once the door is opened. Nobody has to jump. Which is why nobody has ever been cited for it.



Ah, but a sport rig isn't required for someone planning to stay in the plane - like the pilot, for example. An observer who is given a pilot's rig would not have a choice to jump legally unless there was an actual emergency.

I have not said that observer rides are against the regs. There are several ways to do them legally. My point is that a person who boards the plane with the intention of landing in it - as in a stated observer - must be in an approved seat.

What you are describing is nothing but a skirt the reg move. Good for you, I suppose.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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And I interpret is as being against the regs to charge someone for a ride if it's not for the purpose of conducting intentional parachute operations unless you meet the requirements of part 119.
That means that if you hire a plane and pilot to do a demo that your organizing they can't fly you to the demo legally unless it's within 25 miles of take off and you jump in and not land with the plane.
That means you can't charge someone for an observer ride even if they have a seat and a sport rig.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

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DBCOOPER

You can't charge someone for an observer ride even if they have a seat and a sport rig.



Balderdash. Every small airport offers sightseeing rides, and they are perfectly legal as long as it's a non-stop flight within 25 miles of the airport.

Mark

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ShotterMG

Wrong again Chucky boy! Observer rides are a part of sport parachuting. Always have been. Observers are given a parachute, shown how to use it and put on a plane. Every skydiver and person on the plane has the choice to Jump or not once the door is opened. Nobody has to jump. Which is why nobody has ever been cited for it.



.................................................................................

Last time an observer wanted to ride-along at Pitt Meadows, she was refused "because our insurance does not cover observers."

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mark

***You can't charge someone for an observer ride even if they have a seat and a sport rig.



Balderdash. Every small airport offers sightseeing rides, and they are perfectly legal as long as it's a non-stop flight within 25 miles of the airport.

Mark

How's this for Balderdash.

"General aviation pilots can continue to conduct for-profit sightseeing flights within a 25-statute-mile radius of their departure point under Part 91 regulations," said Luis Gutierrez, AOPA director of regulatory and certification policy. "AOPA had argued strongly to keep these operations from being lumped into commercial Part 135 operations."

The biggest change for Part 91 sightseeing operators will be that they now have to get a letter of authorization from the FAA.

Part 91 Commercial Sightseeing Operators

Allowed to continue conducting flights under the operating rules of part 91 within the 25-statute-mile exception, except for flights over national parks, which are generally limited to a total of five per month.
Impact: No change from previous regulations
Must conduct passenger safety briefings on every flight and provide passengers with life preservers for over-water flights. Required briefings include the use of seatbelts, prohibition on smoking, exiting the aircraft, and use of life preservers for over-water flights. Passengers are required to wear the life preservers while in flight if the sightseeing tour is to be conducted beyond the airplane's power-off gliding distance to the shoreline.
Impact: Sightseeing operators who conduct over-water flights beyond the shoreline of an ocean, sea, lake, pond, river, or tidal basin will now have to purchase life preservers at a cost of about $200 per unit and an additional $200 annual maintenance and inspection costs.
Each operator must apply for, and operate in accordance with, a letter of authorization (LOA) issued by the FAA. The LOA application must include the following information:
Name of operator, agent, and any d/b/a under which that operator does business;
Principal business address and mailing address;
Principal place of business (if different from business address);
Name of person responsible for management of the business;
Name of person responsible for aircraft maintenance;
Type of aircraft, registration number(s), and make/model/series; and
An Antidrug and Alcohol Misuse Prevention Program registration.
The operator must comply with the provisions of the letter of authorization received.
Impact: Sightseeing operators could encounter lengthy delays in obtaining LOAs if they wait until close to the September 11, 2007, deadline before sending in their LOA application.
The FAA failed to specify in the final rule what the provisions of the LOA will consist of, which could lead to confusion and problems with some FSDOs.
Any sightseeing operator who has not been complying with the existing drug and alcohol testing requirements will not be able to get an LOA until after they register their drug and alcohol program with the FAA.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

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This is the only mention of mandatory use of a parachute in and Part of the FAR’s.

Quote

Sec. 91.307

Parachutes and parachuting.

(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds—

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.



This is what Part 91 has to say about the use of a seat.

Quote

Sec. 91.107

Use of safety belts, shoulder harnesses, and child restraint systems.

(3) Except as provided in this paragraph, each person on board a U.S.-registered civil aircraft (except a free balloon that incorporates a basket or gondola or an airship type certificated before November 2, 1987) must occupy an approved seat or berth with a safety belt and,

(ii) Use the floor of the aircraft as a seat, provided that the person is on board for the purpose of engaging in sport parachuting;



There is no requirement in FAR’s to wear a rig when operating with the door off. This is addressed in the STC or FAA Field Approval in a list of operating limitations. Seldom if ever is it required in the larger twins used in skydiving but mainly in the smaller single engine AC.

Part 119 is there to determine which operations will have to fly under Part 121, 125 and 135. It also is in reference to AC carrying more than 20 people and a payload of more than 6,000.

Quote

Sec. 119.1 Applicability.

(2) When common carriage is not involved, in operations of U.S.-registered civil airplanes with a seat configuration of 20 or more passengers, or a maximum payload capacity of 6,000 pounds or more.
(b) This part prescribes—
(1) The types of air operator certificates issued by the Federal Aviation Administration, including air carrier certificates and operating certificates



Larger jump planes operate under the rules of Part 91 so Part 119 does not apply. What you charge for a jumper or an observer has no bearing on the anything. You fee scale is not determined by the FED’s.

Sometimes I think we get caught up in chasing words. When it comes right down to it you need to run it by the FED’s and you never know how they are going read it from day to day.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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***§119.1 Applicability.
(a) This part applies to each person operating or intending to operate civil aircraft—

(1) As an air carrier or commercial operator, or both, in air commerce; or

(2) When common carriage is not involved, in operations of U.S.-registered civil airplanes with a seat configuration of 20 or more passengers, or a maximum payload capacity of 6,000 pounds or more.



You don't think a drop zone is a commercial operator that is exempted under this part and allowed to operate under part 91 because of 119.1(6)?
If it was just part 91 why don't DZs have to get a LOA from the Feds ? Where is the drug testing requirement?
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

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You can't just quote part of the reg...


§119.23 Operators engaged in passenger-carrying operations, cargo operations, or both with airplanes when common carriage is not involved.
(a) Each person who conducts operations when common carriage is not involved with airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of 20 seats or more, excluding each crewmember seat, or a payload capacity of 6,000 pounds or more, shall, unless deviation authority is issued—

(1) Comply with the certification and operations specifications requirements of part 125 of this chapter;

(2) Conduct its operations with those airplanes in accordance with the requirements of part 125 of this chapter; and

(3) Be issued operations specifications in accordance with those requirements.

(b) Each person who conducts noncommon carriage (except as provided in §91.501(b) of this chapter) or private carriage operations for compensation or hire with airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of less than 20 seats, excluding each crewmember seat, and a payload capacity of less than 6,000 pounds shall—

(1) Comply with the certification and operations specifications requirements in subpart C of this part;

(2) Conduct those operations in accordance with the requirements of part 135 of this chapter, except for those requirements applicable only to commuter operations; and

(3) Be issued operations specifications in accordance with those requirements.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

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mjosparky

...There is no requirement in FAR’s to wear a rig when operating with the door off. This is addressed in the STC or FAA Field Approval in a list of operating limitations....



I would think following the requirements of an STC is covered somewhere in the FAR's. Am I wrong about that?
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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chuckakers

***...There is no requirement in FAR’s to wear a rig when operating with the door off. This is addressed in the STC or FAA Field Approval in a list of operating limitations....



I would think following the requirements of an STC is covered somewhere in the FAR's. Am I wrong about that?

Part 43 Appendix B

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Quote

You can't just quote part of the reg...



I only quoted the portion that addressed the issue at hand.

Quote


You don't think a drop zone is a commercial operator that is exempted under this part and allowed to operate under part 91 because of 119.1(6)?
If it was just part 91 why don't DZs have to get a LOA from the Feds ? Where is the drug testing requirement?



Look in Part 91.147

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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mjosparky

Quote

You can't just quote part of the reg...



I only quoted the portion that addressed the issue at hand.

***
You don't think a drop zone is a commercial operator that is exempted under this part and allowed to operate under part 91 because of 119.1(6)?
If it was just part 91 why don't DZs have to get a LOA from the Feds ? Where is the drug testing requirement?



Look in Part 91.147

Sparky

It was a rhetorical question. I fly my plane for 3 dropzones and I'm not listed on a loa nor drug tested.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

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DBCOOPER

***

Quote

You can't just quote part of the reg...



I only quoted the portion that addressed the issue at hand.

***
You don't think a drop zone is a commercial operator that is exempted under this part and allowed to operate under part 91 because of 119.1(6)?
If it was just part 91 why don't DZs have to get a LOA from the Feds ? Where is the drug testing requirement?



Look in Part 91.147

Sparky

It was a rhetorical question. I fly my plane for 3 dropzones and I'm not listed on a loa nor drug tested.

Are you saying that there a USPA Group Member DZ’s that are not abiding by the “GROUP MEMBER PLEDGE”?

Sparky


GROUP MEMBER PLEDGE

As a person with operational control, I pledge to:

• Comply with the USPA Basic Safety Requirements (BSRs), which include compliance with the Federal Aviation Regulations relevant to skydiving operations, including aircraft operations.

• Ensure that all pilots employed or utilized for the purpose of parachute operations hold at least a commercial pilot certificate and a second-class medical certificate.

• Ensure that all aircraft utilized for the purpose of parachute operations comply with commercial maintenance requirements described in FAR Part 91.409(a) through (f) as applicable.

• Ensure skydiving staff of the Group Member are appropriately qualified and trained in accordance with the SIM and (where applicable) hold current USPA ratings commensurate with their duties.

• Establish landing procedures that will include separation of high-speed and normal landings. These landing procedures must be prominently displayed and communicated to all jumpers at the drop zone.

• Support USPA promotional programs at the drop zone.

• Require introductory or regular individual USPA membership of:
1. all licensed U.S. skydivers (a skydiver is considered a student until licensed)

2. non-resident foreign nationals who do not have proof of membership in their national aeroclub.

• Include USPA in the Group Member hold-harmless release, consistent with state laws. (New applicants, please provide a copy of the waiver with this application.)



My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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