0
Neoslim22

FAA rules on observer rides

Recommended Posts

There was a thread somewhere a while back where some of the issues came up. For example, the FAA allows "parachutists" to fly without being in seats. Then the problem is that an observer is strictly speaking not a parachutist planning to jump, and so wouldn't qualify to sit on the floor... even if observers and others have been seated on the floor in C-182 jump planes from the beginning of time. I don't recall every seeing any statement from the FAA about how far the definition could be stretched for others involved in parachuting related operations, if at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Neoslim22

Can anyone reference the FAR's or anywhere else the rules are listed for observers? Age requirement? Parachute requirement?



Doing it for free or charging for the slot would make a difference in the requirements.
119.1(6)
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DBCOOPER

***Can anyone reference the FAR's or anywhere else the rules are listed for observers? Age requirement? Parachute requirement?



Doing it for free or charging for the slot would make a difference in the requirements.
119.1(6)

I don't understand your comment. 119.1 it appears to only address pilot requirements for various types of flights.

Couple questions:

1. How would the pilots qualifications change the legality of an observer using the floor as a seat?

2. How would charging or not charging an observer for the ride change the seating or parachute use requirements?

Concerning the original post...

The ONLY people authorized to sit anywhere other than an approved seat (or child safety seat) are people on board the aircraft with the intention of making a parachute jump (see FAR below).

The parachute use requirement and the seating requirement are completely separate issues. The parachute use requirement addresses flights in aircraft equipped with an in-flight door and is determined by how the STC was written. The seating requirement addresses who is and is not required to sit in an approved seat during any flight - skydiving or otherwise.

So yes, if an observer takes a ride in a plane with an in-flight door that requires the use of a parachute, that observer would also be required to wear one. However, the ride would only be legal if the observer sits in an approved seat during the entire flight. The floor is NEVER a legal place for a non-jumper to sit.

I don't know of a plane in which that configuration would be typical during jump operations. All the planes that I know of that have an STC requiring parachute use are also planes that don't have a an approved seat available for a non-jumper - like Cessnas.

There are a couple configurations I can think of that would be covered by both regs. I'm pretty sure it would be legal to put the rear seat in a Cessna and have the observer sit in it while also wearing a parachute. That would amount to sitting in an approved seat in a plane with an in-flight door that requires everyone to wear a parachute. Likewise, in a Cessna with a rear door (like a 206 cargo door set-up) an observer could sit in an installed co-pilot seat.

We've heard a million different opinions on the observer ride issue over the years and as a former DZO I researched it extensively, including getting interpretations from the FSDO and picking the brains of my local feds. EVERY result was the same.

Anyone on board a plane who does not intend to jump must be in an approved seat - period.

Anyone on board a plane requiring the use of an approved parachute for all occupants must wear one whether they plan to jump or not - period.


FAR follows:

From FAR Part 91....

"§91.107 Use of safety belts, shoulder harnesses, and child restraint systems.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator—

(1) No pilot may take off a U.S.-registered civil aircraft (except a free balloon that incorporates a basket or gondola, or an airship type certificated before November 2, 1987) unless the pilot in command of that aircraft ensures that each person on board is briefed on how to fasten and unfasten that person's safety belt and, if installed, shoulder harness.

(2) No pilot may cause to be moved on the surface, take off, or land a U.S.-registered civil aircraft (except a free balloon that incorporates a basket or gondola, or an airship type certificated before November 2, 1987) unless the pilot in command of that aircraft ensures that each person on board has been notified to fasten his or her safety belt and, if installed, his or her shoulder harness.

(3) Except as provided in this paragraph, each person on board a U.S.-registered civil aircraft (except a free balloon that incorporates a basket or gondola or an airship type certificated before November 2, 1987) must occupy an approved seat or berth with a safety belt and, if installed, shoulder harness, properly secured about him or her during movement on the surface, takeoff, and landing. For seaplane and float equipped rotorcraft operations during movement on the surface, the person pushing off the seaplane or rotorcraft from the dock and the person mooring the seaplane or rotorcraft at the dock are excepted from the preceding seating and safety belt requirements. Notwithstanding the preceding requirements of this paragraph, a person may:

(i) Be held by an adult who is occupying an approved seat or berth, provided that the person being held has not reached his or her second birthday and does not occupy or use any restraining device;

(ii) Use the floor of the aircraft as a seat, provided that the person is on board for the purpose of engaging in sport parachuting;
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Back to Top

§119.1 Applicability.
(a) This part applies to each person operating or intending to operate civil aircraft—

(1) As an air carrier or commercial operator, or both, in air commerce; or.....

A drop zone is operating as a commercial operator with the exception made under 119.1(6).

Taking people for rides and charging them for it is a whole different set of rules...

Part 119 says
(6) Nonstop flights conducted within a 25-statute-mile radius of the airport of takeoff carrying persons or objects for the purpose of conducting intentional parachute operations.

Part 91 says
(ii) Use the floor of the aircraft as a seat, provided that the person is on board for the purpose of engaging in sport parachuting;

Notice the difference?
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This:
chuckakers

Anyone on board a plane who does not intend to jump must be in an approved seat - period.


is not exactly the same as this:
chuckakers

[FAR 91.107 . . . A person may] use the floor of the aircraft as a seat, provided that the person is on board for the purpose of engaging in sport parachuting



I think we would agree that a static-line jumpmaster "engages in sport parachuting" even if he or she does not intend to jump and instead rides the C-182 down.

Otherwise, I agree with you. The alleged ambiguity, whether "observing" is a subset of "engaging in," is not very ambiguous at all. If observing is a form of engaging in sport parachuting, then how much more is flying the aircraft also engaging in sport parachuting? Logically, if the observer is allowed to use the floor as a seat, the pilot must also be allowed to use the floor as a seat.

One twist: in PAC-750s and Porters, operators sometimes turn the co-pilots seat around to face aft. The seat is obviously approved if it is facing forward. Is it still approved if it is facing aft? Does an observer in such an aft-facing seat require a parachute?

Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mark


This:***Anyone on board a plane who does not intend to jump must be in an approved seat - period.


is not exactly the same as this:
chuckakers

[FAR 91.107 . . . A person may] use the floor of the aircraft as a seat, provided that the person is on board for the purpose of engaging in sport parachuting



I think we would agree that a static-line jumpmaster "engages in sport parachuting" even if he or she does not intend to jump and instead rides the C-182 down.

Otherwise, I agree with you. The alleged ambiguity, whether "observing" is a subset of "engaging in," is not very ambiguous at all. If observing is a form of engaging in sport parachuting, then how much more is flying the aircraft also engaging in sport parachuting? Logically, if the observer is allowed to use the floor as a seat, the pilot must also be allowed to use the floor as a seat.

One twist: in PAC-750s and Porters, operators sometimes turn the co-pilots seat around to face aft. The seat is obviously approved if it is facing forward. Is it still approved if it is facing aft? Does an observer in such an aft-facing seat require a parachute?

Mark

I ran into the problem of turning the right seat around when doing high altitude tests with a King Air. The Feds said we had to file a 337 for an alteration which was a real pain in the ass.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But once you charge someone for the slot it must be for the"purpose of conducting intentional parachute operations."
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DBCOOPER

But once you charge someone for the slot it must be for the"purpose of conducting intentional parachute operations."



I'm not sure I understand why charging for the slot changes the rules. I read your previous post (where you quote FARs) several times without understanding your line of reasoning. Perhaps you could restate it.

Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There are rules that cover carrying passengers for hire. An exception to the rules is in 119.1(6)that allows commercial skydiving to happen without all of the other requirements that are in place to protect the paying passengers in commercial aviation. It's pretty complex to carry passengers for hire. Even a mom and pop sightseeing operation requires random drug testing for all involved including the mechanics that do the repairs and inspections.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DBCOOPER

Back to Top

§119.1 Applicability.
(a) This part applies to each person operating or intending to operate civil aircraft—

(1) As an air carrier or commercial operator, or both, in air commerce; or.....

A drop zone is operating as a commercial operator with the exception made under 119.1(6).

Taking people for rides and charging them for it is a whole different set of rules...

Part 119 says
(6) Nonstop flights conducted within a 25-statute-mile radius of the airport of takeoff carrying persons or objects for the purpose of conducting intentional parachute operations.

Part 91 says
(ii) Use the floor of the aircraft as a seat, provided that the person is on board for the purpose of engaging in sport parachuting;

Notice the difference?



I think you are talking about observer rides from an air commerce perspective. I'm talking about the legality of allowing a stated non-jumper to sit on the floor. Paying or not, anyone who is not engaged in the jump (observing is not "participating in"or "engaging in" the process) must be in an approved seat.

Maybe I don't completely understand your context.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
By the rules you can hire me and my plane to do a demo jump. As long as it happens within 25 miles of where we take off from. You can't hire me to fly you to another airport to see your girlfriend. Different rules for different applications.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DBCOOPER

By the rules you can hire me and my plane to do a demo jump. As long as it happens within 25 miles of where we take off from. You can't hire me to fly you to another airport to see your girlfriend. Different rules for different applications.



I'm more confused now. What does this have to do with observer rides?

Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is from my perspective and understanding of the regs. I could be violated for my understanding of the regs but I don't think so. If I charge for the slot at a commercial dz and get ramped by the Feds and I am carrying an observer wearing a pilot rig I'm definitely getting violated for carrying a passenger for hire without complying with the regs. I might get it for the seat also cause at this point the Fed already has a hard on.

Now if I take some friends up and bring along a non skydiver to observe and take some pictures, put them in a regular rig and get ramped there is no carrying a passenger for hire issue, they are engaged in the skydiving activity, I think I'm perfectly legal. Hell I could just say they got scared and chickened out, got airsickness or just had to poop and didn't jump. Not like there is any reg that says who can jump or what to do if they change their mind.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mark

***By the rules you can hire me and my plane to do a demo jump. As long as it happens within 25 miles of where we take off from. You can't hire me to fly you to another airport to see your girlfriend. Different rules for different applications.



I'm more confused now. What does this have to do with observer rides?

Mark

It has to do with the regs that cover what your allowed to do and what your not allowed to do. In the demo example we would be legal under the regs. In going to see your girlfriend we would not. Taking an observer that pays for a slot and has no intention of conducting an intentional parachute operation is a violation.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Neoslim22

Just trying to figure this out, looks like there are no rules on observers and the use of a parachute for them.



Rules, as in FARs? True as far as I can tell. But as Rob mentioned in post #2, you would need to refer to the alteration paperwork for the airplane used.

It is interesting that STC SA462WE mentions "observers" and "passengers" specifically, which kind of implies that it is expected that observers will sometimes be carried. STC SA1-193 mentions "approved seating" for pilot and passengers.

Ad far as airplanes modified for skydiving via "Field Approval", it just depends what is specified in the alteration documentation, i.e., Form 337.

It just ain't simple!

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgSTC.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameset

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You are over thinking it and being too nit picky. Not all rules and regulations in all things are written perfectly to cover all eventualities. The idea is, in a plane converted for skydiving operations, occupants not using a seat need to have a parachute on. For example, sometimes you fly to a demo planning to land with the plane at the demo site first. You secure the area or whatever and then you get on the plane for the actual jump. By your thinking the ride over to the site would be illegal. But no one would think that. It's simply industry standard for people in a skydiving plane who are sitting on the floor wear a parachute. That is the intent of the rule and it covers observer rides just as would for your ride over to another airport.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ShotterMG

You are over thinking it and being too nit picky. Not all rules and regulations in all things are written perfectly to cover all eventualities. The idea is, in a plane converted for skydiving operations, occupants not using a seat need to have a parachute on. For example, sometimes you fly to a demo planning to land with the plane at the demo site first. You secure the area or whatever and then you get on the plane for the actual jump. By your thinking the ride over to the site would be illegal. But no one would think that. It's simply industry standard for people in a skydiving plane who are sitting on the floor wear a parachute. That is the intent of the rule and it covers observer rides just as would for your ride over to another airport.



All depends on what the man with the badge says. I would never show up at an air show demo with the jumpers on board. I would have them meet me there because I know the Feds would be there and depending on their mood it could be an issue. You can't use the "thats the way we do it" answer when it's in the regs. Industry standards do not change what the regs say. I couldn't do the ride to another airport with all the seats in, legally, if somebody was paying me.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

For example, sometimes you fly to a demo planning to land with the plane at the demo site first. You secure the area or whatever and then you get on the plane for the actual jump. By your thinking the ride over to the site would be illegal.



Quote

Part 119 says
(6) Nonstop flights conducted within a 25-statute-mile radius of the airport of takeoff carrying persons or objects for the purpose of conducting intentional parachute operations.



Did this flight require you fly more then 25 miles? Did you land a plane with jumpers on the floor more the 25 miles away? Cuz if you do and the FAA is there ramp checking peoples shit, you might find there is now some shit to deal with. Yes I know a lot of people do it, but that don't mean it's legal.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ShotterMG

You are over thinking it and being too nit picky. Not all rules and regulations in all things are written perfectly to cover all eventualities. The idea is, in a plane converted for skydiving operations, occupants not using a seat need to have a parachute on. For example, sometimes you fly to a demo planning to land with the plane at the demo site first. You secure the area or whatever and then you get on the plane for the actual jump. By your thinking the ride over to the site would be illegal. But no one would think that. It's simply industry standard for people in a skydiving plane who are sitting on the floor wear a parachute. That is the intent of the rule and it covers observer rides just as would for your ride over to another airport.



Every fed I've ever spoken with about observer rides disagrees with you.

Jumpers on board a ferry flight to a demo are "engaging in sport parachuting" because they are jumping when they reach the intended drop zone. I doubt a fed would push the issue just because they land at the demo site before the jump.

An observer is in no way engaged in the jumping process and MUST use an approved seat. I've been over it dozens of times with my FSDO and individual field folks over the years and this was always their interpretation.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0