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Phil1111

The 2020 Election trump v. Biden

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14 hours ago, billvon said:

Because peaceful protests usually don't work.  All the peaceful, lawful protests in the world didn't stop segregated buses in the south, for example.  It took a criminal (Rosa Parks) to bring about that change.  

Same with riots.  The US would not have gotten an 8 hour workday without the Haymarket Riot.  The Birmingham Riot of 1963 led to the Civil Rights Act of 1964.  The Stonewall Riots led to the first LGBT rights groups, and that in turn led to the first legal protections for gay people.  The Cincinnati Riots of 2001, started by the police killing of an unarmed black teenager, led to massive police reforms there.

Would any of that happened without those riots?  Not in the same time frame, and potentially never.  There are a lot of people who are so comfortable with the status quo that they won't change, ever, unless they are forced to.  Unless police are forced to change by a Chamber of Commerce that doesn't want to see any more businesses damaged.  Unless the government is forced to address inequalities lest riots erode a politician's popularity.

Does that suck?  You bet it does.  But it happens.

Rioting sucks, and there's no excuse for violence in protests.  But for people who have no other voice, it is their only way to be heard.

Keep in mind that Rosa Parks, and almost all of the Civil Rights protests in the 60s were 'non-violent'.

There's a difference between 'non-violent' and 'civil disobedience'.

The lunch counter sit ins, Rosa Parks on the bus, and many many others were intentionally breaking the law, but not in a violent manner. The protesters fully expected to be arrested. That was part of the plan.
Another part was that they expected to be attacked when they marched. And they didn't fight back. On purpose. First off, because they wouldn't win and it would give their opponents 'ammunition' to use against them (look at how the Alt-RIght wants to make everyone think that 'all protesters are looters and arsonists). Second, because when their peaceful marches and sit ins were met with violent opposition, it brought them widespread sympathy and support. 

But it took a hell of a lot of dedication and discipline to maintain that posture of non-violence. 

But that was the 60s. 

Today, things are a bit different. But not really.

They tried kneeling. That got vilification and a false accusation of 'disrespecting' the flag and the military.

They tried marching, waving signs and singing songs. That got nothing but rubber bullets and teargas.

So we're now to the point that when the cops shoot an unarmed black man, a couple city blocks go up in flames. 
And it still goes on.
When the cops shot Blake in Kenosha, I was appalled. And a bit surprised.

After all the shit that's gone on in the last couple months, the cops still are doing the same thing. And acting surprised and hurt when they come under fire for it.

Are they EVER going to learn to stop?

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5 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

After all the shit that's gone on in the last couple months, the cops still are doing the same thing. And acting surprised and hurt when they come under fire for it.

Are they EVER going to learn to stop?

There was a cop in the UK who was just suspended because not only was he caught on camera putting a suspect in a prolonged chokehold, he was repeatedly shouting loud enough for everyone in the street to hear, "stop struggling or you're going to sleep".

Since I can't believe anyone would be stupid enough to think that was a good idea in the current climate I can only assume he felt he would be immune from any consequences and could do whatever the fuck he wanted. That's what they need to learn, that they will be held accountable. First that has to happen.

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On 9/3/2020 at 11:14 PM, wmw999 said:

How can we support protests while condemning riots? Is there a well-defined line besides the already-stated “looting and burning are unacceptable?”

I guess I'll just have to take in on faith that posters here condemn it unequivocally, no ifs ands or but but buts about it.

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So the Justice Department has decided to defend Trump in the upcoming rape slander suit brought by E. Jean Carroll.  So your tax money will now go to defending an accused rapist.  And if he loses?  Your tax money will pay the court costs and the fine - a fine brought about by Trump's rape of, and subsequent slander of, Carroll.

Can't wait for the "small government republicans" to defend this.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-08/doj-seeks-to-take-over-trump-defense-in-e-jean-carroll-lawsuit

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2 hours ago, billvon said:

So the Justice Department has decided to defend Trump in the upcoming rape slander suit brought by E. Jean Carroll.  So your tax money will now go to defending an accused rapist.  And if he loses?  Your tax money will pay the court costs and the fine - a fine brought about by Trump's rape of, and subsequent slander of, Carroll.

Can't wait for the "small government republicans" to defend this.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-08/doj-seeks-to-take-over-trump-defense-in-e-jean-carroll-lawsuit

This belongs in the Banana Republic thread. 

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12 minutes ago, airdvr said:

As much as I deplore the looting and agree with you that it distracts from the issue I cringe when I see people talk about MLK's technique.  His techniques ended badly for him.

What kind of bullshit victim blaming is that? He was a famous black man murdered by a racist mad man. 
 

What should he have done differently?

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35 minutes ago, airdvr said:

As much as I deplore the looting and agree with you that it distracts from the issue I cringe when I see people talk about MLK's technique.  His techniques ended badly for him.

Exactly!  Like Lincoln.  Lincoln should have chosen decisions that would have kept him alive, rather than doing foolish things like freeing US slaves.  And all those US soldiers who died fighting overseas - their decisions ended badly for them.  No wonder Trump supporters consider them losers and suckers.

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26 minutes ago, jakee said:

What kind of bullshit victim blaming is that? He was a famous black man murdered by a racist mad man. 
 

What should he have done differently?

Not blaming the victim.  Don't get your panties all bunched up.  I'm saying people really should think twice before using MLK as an example.  I think it's why you don't see any strong black leaders stepping up here.  Where is Jessie Jackson?

What should he have done differently is what most leaders are doing today....a better job of protection.

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7 minutes ago, billvon said:

Exactly!  Like Lincoln.  Lincoln should have chosen decisions that would have kept him alive, rather than doing foolish things like freeing US slaves.  And all those US soldiers who died fighting overseas - their decisions ended badly for them.  No wonder Trump supporters consider them losers and suckers.

Try not to confuse wars with assassinations.

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7 minutes ago, billvon said:

Exactly!  Like Lincoln.  Lincoln should have chosen decisions that would have kept him alive, rather than doing foolish things like freeing US slaves.  And all those US soldiers who died fighting overseas - their decisions ended badly for them.  No wonder Trump supporters consider them losers and suckers.

Bullshit. It was going to theater that did him in. He did it to himself. 

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39 minutes ago, airdvr said:

As much as I deplore the looting and agree with you that it distracts from the issue I cringe when I see people talk about MLK's technique.  His techniques ended badly for him.

Maybe he knew there was a risk, and thought it was worth it. Kind of like skydiving, only a little more selfless.

There is no unassailably good or unassailably bad person or decision. Looking for the problems (or looking only for the good sides) is a self-affirming way to interpret a situation, but unless you have a goal for that situation, then all you're doing is living in the past.

Wendy P.

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55 minutes ago, airdvr said:

As much as I deplore the looting and agree with you that it distracts from the issue I cringe when I see people talk about MLK's technique.  His techniques ended badly for him.

Prime example to show why Trump continues to have a fair bit of support. There are many people who simply cannot grasp that people would do something that isn't solely in their own best interest.

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11 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Try not to confuse wars with assassinations.

You do know that Booth assassinated Lincoln due to the Civil War, right?  And considered himself part of the war effort?

More importantly, you don't seem to realize that people sometimes do the right thing even when that action puts themselves at risk.  You are here in the US because hundreds of thousands of US soldiers made what you consider to be bad decisions.  Perhaps they are owed a bit more than your summary judgment that they were foolish - even if the man you support thinks they are losers.

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24 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I think it's why you don't see any strong black leaders stepping up here.  Where is Jessie Jackson?

MLK Jr was an extraordinary man in an extraordinary time. There is a reason a National Holiday is named for him. You want to criticize the leaders of the black community at a time when your nation has chosen the p.o.s. POTUS it currently has? Give your head a severe shaking.

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1 hour ago, airdvr said:

Not blaming the victim.  Don't get your panties all bunched up.  I'm saying people really should think twice before using MLK as an example.  I think it's why you don't see any strong black leaders stepping up here.  Where is Jessie Jackson?

What? So not only are you blaming him for being assassinated you’re blaming him for destroying civil rights leadership because he was assassinated? And Jessie Jackson? His major years of activist leadership came in the decades after King was murdered. Why would he suddenly have decided to be scared? 
 

What should he have done differently is what most leaders are doing today....a better job of protection.“


How? He’s not a politician. He didn’t get The secret service To sort him out, and it’s not like the governors or police were interested in helping.

 

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4 hours ago, airdvr said:

As much as I deplore the looting and agree with you that it distracts from the issue I cringe when I see people talk about MLK's technique.  His techniques ended badly for him.

His techniques brought about major Civil Rights legislation.
His techniques garnered a LOT of sympathy & support. You are aware that he recieved a call from President Kennedy after one of his peaceful marches was attacked by the police, right?

He knew full well that he was not likely to survive to see the end of the struggle. 
His "I've been to the mountaintop" sermon, the day before he was assassinated said, in part:
 

Quote

Like anybody, I would like to live a long life. Longevity has its place. But I’m not concerned about that now. I just want to do God’s will. And He’s allowed me to go up to the mountain. And I’ve looked over. And I’ve seen the Promised Land.

I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight, that we, as a people, will get to the promised land!

To him, the goal was worth the risk. 
Rather noble, IMO.

Don't forget that ALL of the 'Freedom Riders' knew perfectly well the danger they were putting themselves into. 
Before they boarded the buses that took them to the protests, they had 'all of their affairs in order'. They knew full well that they stood a real chance of getting killed. 

But they considered the goal worth the risk. 

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1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:



Don't forget that ALL of the 'Freedom Riders' knew perfectly well the danger they were putting themselves into. 
Before they boarded the buses that took them to the protests, they had 'all of their affairs in order'. They knew full well that they stood a real chance of getting killed. 

But they considered the goal worth the risk. 

What?  Surely they could have faked bone spurs to avoid going.

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11 minutes ago, ryoder said:

No one in that campaign can hear lyrics???

ROTFLMAO!!!

They can hear them - they just don't understand them.  I am sure they think it's a song about how fortunate people grow up to be successful businessmen and presidents.

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16 minutes ago, billvon said:

They can hear them - they just don't understand them.  I am sure they think it's a song about how fortunate people grow up to be successful businessmen and presidents.

I just thought of something: Recently Scaramucci stated in a tweet that there are people inside Trump's campaign who don't want to see him re-elected. Maybe this was not an accident, but deliberate sabotage.

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